All Regional Airline Pilots cost Jobs

[JohnDoe]

Geezzz....... yet another mudslinging mainline vs regional thread.

I know I'm gonna sound like a broken record here.......but,

Why don't you all use the time to write your senators about this cabotage issue that is up for vote soon in the Senate. If it passes, I don't care what airline you fly for, it could end up screwing us ALL in the years to come.

If people in this forum used half the time they spent slinging crap, every senator out there would be bombarded with e-mails fighting this by now...........

 

[GogglesPisano]

Some of you can't recognize blatanat flamebait when you see it. BE90CPT is sitting in front of his PC with a jar a vaseline getting off on all of this.

 

[Networ-King]

Well..... We all know this was flame bait from the get go, but we still continue to feed this thread.....

I guess everyone has an opinion so heres my .01 1/2 cents.....

JMHO....... but....


SO FAR YOU GUYS ARE ALL WRONG!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Its not any Major airlines fault and its not any Regional airlines fault.......

ITS ALPA'S FAULT........

For not taking this whole freaking whipsawing thing and getting rid of it in the first place. Why is it that ALPA dropped the d a m n ball and said no to merging the lists of the WO and the majors. Why is it that the majority of the airlines in the US are ALPA and yet there is so many different payscales for the same airplane with the same UNION? Does the ELECTRICIANS union have different hourly rates for putting in the same equipment? ALPA should have gotten off their high and mighty A$$E$ and taken care of this way back when. Instead look what they have produced......

your a regional pilot...... no im not....yes you are....no im not..... jesus..... just listen to us all fighting amongst ourselves like a bunch of little school kids.

I think ALPA needs to grow a pair and have a MALPA and a RALPA

Major Airline Pilot Ass. and Regional Airline Pilot Ass....

Regionals being limited to 70 seater for ALL OUR futures and careers and anything over that would be Majors.

You gotta have a regional alpa, since all regionals are not going to be WO'd.

Then you have to settle an industry wide paysacle for the 19 seater all the way up to the 550 seater. This would benefit all the alpa carriers and management wouldn't grow "contract" regionals. If they want a 50 seater for a certain route, well fine then..... put comair or ASA or AWAC or Mesaba or ALG or PSA on there because they cost the same as TSA or SKW or MESA. CHQ....teamsters???? dunno???? You guys getting my drift? Don't have all the kinks worked out yet, but heck this make alot more sense then whats happening right now.

Now don't beat me up too bad here..... JMHO K?

 

[General Lee]

Well, more RJs and less mainline aircraft would mean less jobs for Mainline pilots, but that is managments doing. They like the lower cost structure of the regionals (which is still falling at this time), and would rather have a smaller mainline. That is where ALPA is the only thing saving us at the time. Some of their practices are interesting at times, but they are the only ones to protect us. Yes, they should have not made such a dividing line in the past with the RJs---and they should have integrated them into the mainline fleets---which would have created more jobs at the mainline level. Now they have to deal with that--and have to decide if some newer RJs can be negotiated for in the next mainline contracts. I don't think limiting aircraft to runway length is a great idea either----then Orange County, California (5700 ft) would have only RJs or Brasilias......


Hey, Networ-King---I like that avitar.

Bye Bye--General Lee

 

[BE90CPT]

Well, more RJs and less mainline aircraft would mean less jobs for Mainline pilots, but that is managments doing. They like the lower cost structure of the regionals (which is still falling at this time), and would rather have a smaller mainline. That is where ALPA is the only thing saving us at the time. Some of their practices are interesting at times, but they are the only ones to protect us. Yes, they should have not made such a dividing line in the past with the RJs---and they should have integrated them into the mainline fleets---which would have created more jobs at the mainline level. Now they have to deal with that--and have to decide if some newer RJs can be negotiated for in the next mainline contracts. I don't think limiting aircraft to runway length is a great idea either----then Orange County, California (5700 ft) would have only RJs or Brasilias......


Hey, Networ-King---I like that avitar.

Bye Bye--General Lee

Finally someone that understands what I was trying to say.

I am not blaming fellow pilots for what is happening. However Mainline unions could have had a little forsight and included the idea of RJ jets in contract. As said, it would have created more jobs.

Thanks General Lee for reading into what I was saying!

 

[belchfire]

BE 90

Why didn't you just say that in the
first place instead of blaming pilots
for stealing other pilots jobs?

The bottom line is, no majors, no
regionals (we have to see how that
works in the future). When more than
one regional tries to get out from under
the codeshare and flying on their own,
going mano-a-mano with the traditional
"major" lines (and beating them) you
can fuss about costing mainline jobs.
It's called the free market at that point,
and SWA, ATA, AirTran and Jet Blue are
doing it right now. Are you mad at them
for stealing jobs from Big D, AA and NW?
Cause they are. And again, it's the free
market...and I would go to work for any of
those four tomorrow.

 

[MiniMeGotWings]

General Lee is right again

ALPA dropped the ball years ago by not insisting that all jet flying go to mainline carriers. more planes=more jobs. it would have negated the need for most of the scope language that currently prohibits the growth of regional partners. it would have done away with the need for flow through. heck it might have even gone a long way towards acheiving world peace. mesa could no longer plunder smaller, weaker companies. smaller cities would still have service, and mgt. couldn't whipsaw pilot groups with threats of moving their flying to another certificate. the only problem now is the damage has been done. regionals have grown at the expense of shrinking seniority lists at majors. if we could only turn back the clock...

 

[Publishers]

AH

AH! The problem with this thinking is that it assumes that the market stayed the same all the time. It also assumes that if these jobs were part of a "major" carrier that it would carry wages and benefits of a major carrier.

I would suggest that this may not be the case at all. In fact, it may not have let the regionals develop like they have. To serve this feed there may have been even less magor airline flying and hence less quality jobs.

 

[DoinTime]

Both of these quotes come from the same man's mouth only 5.5 hours apart:

11-05-2003 13:00

MY POINT IS, WHETHER YOU FLY FOR COMMAIR, MESA, ACA, CHQ, ALG, ETC... ANY AND ALL FLYING YOU ARE DOING COMES AT A COST TO A MAJOR AIRLINE PILOT. So why you are congradulating yourselves on how great you are, keep those facts in your mind. Send a thank you note to a furloughed major airline pilot thanking THEM for your job.

11-05-2003 18:33

I am not blaming fellow pilots for what is happening. However Mainline unions could have had a little forsight and included the idea of RJ jets in contract. As said, it would have created more jobs.

Thanks BE90CPT on showing us how to talk out of both sides of your mouth. You should be in airline management.

ITS ALPA'S FAULT........

I want everyone to stop and think for a second on who ALPA is. Better yet, who ALPA was 10 years ago when these decisions that we live with today were being made.

 

[dogg]

Hey as long as were on another round and round regional vs major deal, I have a question. Does anyone have an idea at the big regionals that are WO, how many pax never see a mainline A/C. Trying to figure out the whole profit vs loss picture and am wondering how many seats are a subsidy to put pax on a mainline A/C and how many pax come and go strictly on the WO A/C............

 

[MiniMeGotWings]

i would agree with publisher that the wages for an rj pilot flying at a major carrier would not be as high as on say a mad dog or a 737, but they would fall under the same contractual work rule provisions as the other pilots and i can assure you most major airlines lead the pack in terms of work rules...pick any regional and ask a pilot if they would, sight unseen, trade contracts with any major pilot (compensation remains the same). their are a finite amount of seats that are demanded by the public. an rj makes sense in some markets. wouldn't it be better for that rj to be flown at a major airline where the pay is substatially higher, the works rules are better, and the opportunity for advancement exists? by allowing the regionals to grow at the expense of the majors has created more net pilot jobs, but these jobs are at a lower wage and with fewer advancement options. alpa could have insured major airline growth by requiring all jet aircraft to be flown by the majors at a negotiated pay rate agreeable by both mgt. and the respective airline's pilots. i'm a card carrying, due paying alpa member myself, but i'm not afraid to say that we all dropped the ball on this one years ago.

 

[Publishers]

subsidy

One of you hit it on the head. The fact is that many routes are subsidized by the major carrier. That is obviously based on the fare that they can sustain plus the loads from that market.

The things that make up the cost of this operation go well beyond pilots. If you had it under the mainline, maintenance, and all the other costs may also increase. Your better work rules usually results in less productivity and higher cost. This alos goes to an argument from another thread over flight attendants. The fact is that when you have the system we have now, a flight attendant can reach a pay rate well in excess of what the job should pay and for which there would be an ample supply of people to do the job.

While it is changing, a career in regionals was more or less not the objective. In effect, it was to be a high turnover, lower paying job. That made it economical for the major to sup-port.

 

[Caveman]

Dogg,

I seem to remember in the past couple of years that something like 40+% of Comair's pax never see the inside of a mainline a/c. I may have gotten it backwards and it's only 40+% get to see the mainline a/c. In any case this is a number that I remember hearing from one of the Comair suits. Take it with a grain of salt.

Caveman

 

[smellthejeta]

Dogg,

I seem to remember in the past couple of years that something like 40+% of Comair's pax never see the inside of a mainline a/c. I may have gotten it backwards and it's only 40+% get to see the mainline a/c. In any case this is a number that I remember hearing from one of the Comair suits. Take it with a grain of salt.

Caveman

Caveman,

I would believe those numbers. If the ratio of checked bags is a decent correlation to the total pax distribution, I would say 40% of those pax at ACA don't see a mainline aircraft on any particular trip. I once postulated that percentage and later on heard from some suit that it was rather accurate.

What is hard to determine, though, is if a pax flies on the RJ because it's DLC branded or UAX branded, or because it goes where the pax want to go. I.e., I've heard some people say that the only reason they fly ACA is because it is the UA brand. When ACA goes at it alone, forget it. I suppose flying from say BDL to JAX, that you could reasonably expect people to book connections in EWR, IAD, PHL, CLT, and ATL. (Not saying that all airlines with hubs in those cities serve the BDL-JAX market, I'm just postulating what a reasonable connection would be) CLE and PIT are starting to stretch it, but what about DTW and ORD? How far out of your way would you be willing to go to fly on a "real" jet? I.e., if you can take ACA from BDL-IAD-JAX, would you fly mainline instead from BDL-ORD-JAX?

As far as "route subsidies" or what have you go, the term you are looking for is "network contribution." First, not just regional routes are "subsidized." Look at all of the Florida markets. Do you think those legs in and of themselves make a ton of money? No. But they can feed high revenue routes and at the very least cover the marginal operational costs of the flight. If you cover your operating costs, at least it is worthwhile to fly the flight.

Truly subsidized routes are EAS routes, and that has nothing to do with the airline and everything to do with communities subsidizing those routes. Obviously, UA finds benefit from ACA flying CHO and RIC to IAD.

 

[Publishers]

contribution

You are right that I was talking about network contribution to some extent. The point being that the major carrier is guaranteeing the regional X amount on the route passengers or not. One of the advantages to the major is that often his commitment on a route is not that long. If things do not work out, he can move on. This is another advantage as it is easier than if you had main line people there.

The whole concept was developmental at a reasonable cost. You could use the cheap way to get into a market.

Branding is very important to the cause. I would say the average passenger does not know what is going to be at the gate awaiting them unless they fly a route all the time. Anymore it is schedule, price, brand.

 

[markpilot]

The easiest way to settle this problem is for the Regional seniority lists to be integrated into the Major lists. This way, we can all call ourselves "Major" pilots and immediately eliminate all the "Regional" positions!

Problem solved!

 

[Publishers]

idea

And just how do you account for the fact that some of the regionals have been spun off and others fly for several carriers. For if you only dealt with the wholly owned, you would make them not competitive with the others.

 

[rumorhasit]

Within most of your careers(20-30yrs from now) you will see regionals flying most all the domestic(with a few to mex/can) and the majors flying international and long routes such as nyc to lax...It is a fact of life coming to a sky near you. That is why Regional Pilot contracts are so important to lay down rules and pay for the future.

The Airlines and unions have already opened Pandora's box...Now the industry must eat the $hit sandwich.....

 

[Mike72]

ALL!

Please ignore any comments with my username. I just logged in and I see someone has stolen my password and is posting nasty things on here. I have changed my password, and I apologize to everyone.