ALL ATPS Multi-Engine Course

Hipster Loser

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I'm scheduled to attend the 4 day multi-engine IFR/Comm. course in a few weeks at ALL ATPS.

Looking for any helpful info on getting through the course successfully in 4 days.

Whats the quality of training.
How are the aircraft.
Did you go over the 10 hours.
Whats the study material like.
Whats the checkride like.
Difficulties encountered.


Any info. is much appreciated.

Thanks.
 

aucfi

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What’s the quality of training.
You train for the checkride. Very professional though.

How are the aircraft.
Well maintained and equipped.

Did you go over the 10 hours.
9.0 exactly but that’s when it was 9 hour course.

Whats the study material like.
A 30-40 page book that covers the basic Seminole systems & multi aerodynamics. The first 11 or 12 pages will be your oral...

Whats the checkride like.
I thought it was a breeze. Like I previously said, you train for the check ride.

Difficulties encountered.
Cash only for the examiner fee!



Study the manual they send you inside and out before you go. Also, brush up on your instrument skills and you will be fine.
 

scottn2flying

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A:quality is ok to pass the checkride with their examiner, just don't go away thinking you can jump into any twin and fly IFR safey.
A:The aircraft are in great condition and you shouldn't have any problems with that.
A:Hours wise you'll only get what you need, even tho you pay for 10, I personally only got 7.5 total training and 1.0 for the exam. Therefore I got cheated on 1.5 hours which I did ask my instructor and he basically blew me off.
A:The study material is great and very precise. Keep the book and use it for your MEI later.
A:Checkride was easy and you can tell apparently ATP must give alittle something extra to the examiner for passes. I've heard some stories where the examiner should had failed someone but didn't.(but this might just be that examiner) Pay wise you can pay the examiner any way you want to, at least at my location you could.
A:What sucked the most, was I got a hotel while at ATP and only flew once a day, even though I was told by ATP that I'd fly at least twice, so basically I could had commuted back and forth. It was only a 2 hour drive at the time.
Well, that was my experience which was a few years ago at a specific location. Let us know which location you are going to and you might get some better details. Such as, instructor, examiner, and etc.
Mainly, if I had to do it all over again, I'd would.
 
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study the pamphlet real hard, memorize the checklists
ask for a maneuvers spreadsheet, memorize it too
they train you for the c-ride, very efficiently
a-craft is top notch, none better
examiner knows whats up, but will fail you if you fawk up
 

Tram

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Hipster-

Basically - it's just like Vladimir said..

Firstly - come in IFR proficient.. it would help to download the garmin 430 sim and learn to go direct to an airport with it and how to load approaches with it..



Go over the manuvers in the book.. Chair fly them..


But.. to answer your questions directly..


Whats the quality of training- On par with every other flight school in the country.. Alot of that will vary by the instructor you get..

How are the aircraft.- They are great and suberbly maintained..

Did you go over the 10 hours. -
If you buy a 10 hour program, depending on where you do your training you will get "up to 10" hours.. ATP is not a time building program, if you are ready to go in 5 hours, your going.. Which is probably why scottnflying didn't get all 10, he simply didn't need it to pass the ride..Most students go the full amount..You WON'T go over, unless your paying for it.. :) Going over 10 hours means you were not ready or you busted your ride..

Whats the study material like. - Come into the program with the first 16 pages of the Piper Seminole Supplement well read and understood.. If you can flip to the last pages in the book and answer the 44 questions verbatim, you will be fine for your oral.. You need to know all the vspeeds, etc.. Know your airplane.. Your already IFR rated, so there will be little "rehashing" info you should already know.. You will be tested on the "new" info mostly.. The twin stuff.. You must know the items dealing with a twin.. Vmc, critical engine, Pfactor, torque, accelerated and spiraling slipstreams.. You also need to be familiar with what is Vmc and what contributes to Vmc such as things like standard day conditions, most unfavorable weight, aft cg, critical engine windmilling, flaps and gear in the up position, up to 5 degrees of bank into the op engine and max power on the operating engine. ;)

Whats the checkride like. - Depends on where you do the training and who your examiner is.. Some are of course easier than others.. I will say this, in most cases, if you can pass a checkride with one of the ATP examiners, you will be fine with other examiners - the examiners do not "work" for ATP... They are simply examiners for ATP because they have the PA44 on their ticket and can give ATP Rating checkrides, which is the bread and butter of ATP..
 

Hipster Loser

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I'll be taking the course down in Trenton NJ. Any info on that particular location?

Ive looked over a pdf. copy of the training supplement, and so far have most of it memorized. I basically made an oral Q and A from the sample oral questions in the back in Word.

I have very little experience with a GPS, but I did download the GPS trainer from their website. Should I know this unit inside and out? I havent tried using it yet. Will I be relying on it a lot during training?

In terms of my instrument skills, Im getting current now.

Also, the website provides some approach plates for the NJ area. Will these be the only ones used exclusively? They are also outdated plates too.

How long were your checkrides, and what did you have to perform.

Steep turns
vmc demo
stalls on/off
drift down

visual pattern
ils
non prec.

In terms of the emergency checklists, which ones need to be memorized.

I have these memorized.
In flight engine failure
troubleshoot
secure

Will I be doing my training in either a 1979 or 2000 seminole or both. I'd prefer one model throughout.

It seems the airstart procedure differs. The order and items included differ btwn the two models. Will I have to memorize both?

Any more additonal info would be great.

Thanks.
 

Hipster Loser

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one other thing, the book states that ATP only shuts down the engine on the left side for both models. I guess I'll know which engines gonna fail!
 

Tram

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Hipster-

I don't know much about the NJ location..

The training supplement is what your oral will come from. They should have sent you a supplement in the mail..

If your not familiar with the GPS I would reccomend getting used to it.. You need to be able to get to and from airports and load an approach.. Know that in order to navigate via "GPS" the gps needs to be selected..If your shooting a vor, ils, etc the gps needs to be selected to "vloc." Just remember - if you put a nav freq in the gps - you probably need to have the vloc set.. your instructor will show you all this.. That's it really..

You will need to pick up some plates for the NJ area.. NOS plates are fine..

Seems like most checkrides run about 1.4 on the average.. Typical checkride goes like this...

Take off roll with an engine failure.. then climb out with an engine failure.. then go and shoot your approaches.. then the VFR airwork.. steep turns, slow flight to a power off stall followed by a power on stall then into the Vmc demo and you'll head back to the airport and do an emergency decent into the pattern.. Once there you'll do short field landings and some single engine pattern work...

Checklist - engine failure in flight is the only one that MUST be memorized.. the rest can be refered back to.

Training will be in whatever aircraft is sitting on the ramp the days your there.. that could change daily.. not a big deal at all.. Airstarts are via the checklist - they're not a memory item..

If you plan on your left engine always failing, your going to be in for a rude awakening.. :) You'll lose both, but you'll only shut down and secure the left one...

If you have anything else, ask...
 

Hipster Loser

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Thanks for the input Tram.

Yeah, I felt kinda bogged down with all the checklists. I thought I'd need to memorize them all.

Ive got the inflight engine failure, trouble shooting and securing down pat.

It was just memorizing all the others. I can pretty much cover all the items, just not in the order they list them in the supplement. I have my own logical way.
Since I have a lot of time in piper warriors, I'm familiar with most of the controls installed and the locations. I thinkthis will help.

Im gonna start messing with that GPS program installed on my cpu too.

If I come up with any other questions, I'll post them.
 

Tram

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Inflight engine failure is the only one you need to know "verbatim."
 

tweetypie

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The traning is good and the aircraft are all in good order. It is a good place to obtain an add on.

However of the 10 hours I did, I only got to fly 8.2
 

Tram

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If you guys read the description of the programs, you'll see it's not a "10 hour program.." You are given "up to 10 hours" and then you take the checkride.. Most instructors will give you the full or as much as they are able, as it's time in their log book too..
 

tweetypie

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My 8.2 hours consisted of

5.2 hours training
1 hour flight to the examiners local airport for the checkride
1 hour chekride
1 hour return flight to ATP's Base
 

Tram

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So, sounds like you didn't bust the checkride, which means.... you must have been prepared right? :)

Did you do your training in ATL?
 

atlcrashpad

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All ATPS

I did my ATP there (RDU) in 1999. Started studying the writ on fri 0700, took the next day: 92%. A half day training on sat and sun. Took and passed the practical exam on sun afternoon. Worth every pennie.
 

tweetypie

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Yes I was prepared, due to the good instructor that I had but mainly due to learning the booklet before I went (engine out emergencies, the in-flight checklists and the set ups for the maneuvers)

My understanding before I went (quite wrongly) was that I would have 10 hours to prepare and take the checkride, when in fact it worked out to a little over half of that. Im not saying that is a bad thing (obviously as I passed) but if someone has the wrong expectation and isnt ready in those 5-6 hours prep, they would probably be asked for another $225 for every extra hour they need.

Had I been a little more rusty on the maneuvers I dont think atp would have allowed me to practice for 9 hours, with them swallowing the cost of the 2 hour trip to the examiner

As long as guys are aware of exactly what will take place, there is no problem. I just dont think atp make that clear when you sign up
 

Tram

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I dunno how much more clear they could make it.. Right off the website is the first sentence you would read concerning the 10 hour program..

" ATP's multi-engine rating program adds multi-engine instrument privileges to your existing Private or Commercial Pilot Certificate. All necessary ground and flight instruction required by the Multi-Engine Practical Test Standards is included. This 4 day course provides up to 8.5 hours of flight training and the use of the aircraft for the checkride."
 

tweetypie

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What part of that paragraph states that 2 hours of that time will be absorbed into flying to the checkride ? And I tranined for 5.2 hours and not 8.5. I can assure that I would felt much more comfortable in taking the flight test with 3 more hours under my belt
 

Tram

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Ok, I can't really say what other instructors do, or what they have done..

I try and fly my guys 8.5 every time and send them to the check ride.. I give them 8.5 training, they get 1.5 to the checkride and then the checkride and then the ride home..

I guess I'm sorry you were ready in under 8.5 and passed?? I don't really understand what your trying to get at..

It seemed like you said "I just dont think atp make that clear when you sign up" which made it sound like you thought it wasn't clear that you weren't getting 10 hours of training when you showed up.. So I quoted the website where it states you will get UP TO 8.5.. :)

Up to.. that means.. if you are ready, for a checkride in 5 hours, that's when you go.. if your not ready in 5, you keep going until your ready.. and then you go.. :)
 

Hipster Loser

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I hope I'll be ready in less hours rather than more.

Tram,

What do most people fail on the checkride from what you've seen. What do they usually have difficulty performing.

In terms of the oral questions, there are a few questions I need some clarification on.

E. What is the function of the nitrogen cylinder?
Assists in feathering the prop.

F. What is the purpose of the spring in the prop dome? Drives prop to High Pitch / Low RPM

Not sure if my answers are correct provided the limited info. in the booklet. It seems the booklet does not provide concrete answers to this. Don't they both concurrently do the same thing, yet they are separate questions. I would imagine that the spring works with the nitrogen-charged cylinder to feather the prop together.
Could you provide a more acceptable answer.


Also, there is no specific answer to this question in the booklet:

What indicates that the gear is in transit and the hydraulic pump is activated?



Here's another:

How do you prevent a heater overheat?
To prevent activation of the overheat switch upon normal heater shutdown during ground operation, turn the three-position switch to “FAN” for two minutes with the “AIR INTAKE” lever in the open position before turning the switch off.

During flight, leave the air intake open for a minimum of 15 seconds after turning the switch to off.

Is this the answer they are looking for? It doesn't seme like the booklet addresses prevention of an actual overheat, unless Im reading it incorrectly. It just tells how to prevent a self-induced one from shutdown. Not just how to preventone from occuring on its own.


Thanks for any clarification.
 
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