ALG to FLOPs

[WileE]

When I went in.

I interviewed on a monday and Eric asked me at the end of the interview if I was available to start class in two weeks. My answer was something like "hmmm... Hell yes!"

I think if I had told him I had to think about it I'd still have gotten the next class, but don't count on having a couple days before you are even asked the question.

 

[Heavy Set]

What aircraft will FLOPS likely hire into? Any predictions for these latest newhires - what will they likely fly first? What about the Citation X - have FLOPS guys replaced the Swift pilots and started to bid into the X?

Good news about the interviews.

 

[JetCapt69]

small cabin

Most (not all, always exceptions) new hires will go to the small cabin aircraft, CJ, Hawker 400XP, KA.

All start at the same pay level. Swift is still driving the 10's. Word is they are not that hot an item for sales.

My guess is we will never take control of them. I assume they are still leased, without outright ownership, I would expect Swift to continue flying them. (my opinion)

 

[FracCapt]

Re: small cabin

My guess is we will never take control of them. I assume they are still leased, without outright ownership, I would expect Swift to continue flying them. (my opinion)

According to one of the salesmen I talked to a short while ago, they are supposed to push the 800XP as much as possible to people going for the mid size cabins. He said they were given the impression that they are to do "whatever it takes" to talk owners out of the X, and into the XP. Of course, it makes sense from the companys standpoint...the new XP sells for less money, but more profit - and their pushing Raytheon product instead of Cessna. The biggest problem with the X is that if the fleet were to start growing very rapidly, they would be buying most of the X's on the used market, driving the price up quite a bit.

 

[Live4flyng]

The biggest problem with the X is that if the fleet were to start growing very rapidly, they would be buying most of the X's on the used market, driving the price up quite a bit.

The biggest problem with the X is FLOPS doesn't own or operate any. There isn't much profit to be made when you hire a 135 operator (SWIFT) to do your trips for you. That would be a huge reason why the salespeople are pushing the 800XP. Time is money in this business making the X very popular, and the 800XP won't substitute that.

 

[FracCapt]

The biggest problem with the X is FLOPS doesn't own or operate any. There isn't much profit to be made when you hire a 135 operator (SWIFT) to do your trips for you. That would be a huge reason why the salespeople are pushing the 800XP. Time is money in this business making the X very popular, and the 800XP won't substitute that.

How many used X's are there on the market? I stand by my original comment. There are so few used X's out there(remember, it is a used airplane program - not new) that buying a bunch of them would drive the price through the roof.

The original plan was for FO to crew the aircraft once we had sold the first 5. Then the new Raytheon management came in, and, of course, it didn't make sense to them to be selling Cessna products. No, the XP doesn't substitute for the X if somebody is after sheer speed, or is just one of those people that wants to be able to say they own (a share of) the fastest bizjet on the market. I don't doubt for a second that if FO management thought they could sell a bunch of X's for a decent profit, and keep the costs reasonable, they would be pushing the X pretty hard since nothing else yet fills that niche.

Actually, I know the real reason they're not pushing the X's. Why would they want to sell a bunch of them when FO is about to buy a company that operates the largest fleet of X's in the world? After all, why else would RTS have been in CGF but to sell all the aircraft and owner contracts before the NJA pilots can strike? Better keep your resumes up to date.

 

[NJAowner]

X vs XP

Speed is not the only major difference betweenthe X and XP. The X can seat 8 in a double club comfortably,while the XP squeezes in 8 into a couch (or in th ejet world, divan) for 3. Also, the XP has barely has room for a briefcase and no aft luggage while the X has plenty of aft storage. If you fly with 5 or more, and/or have luggage, the XP is not a substitute for the X. If you fly with 3 or 4 with little or no luggage, you can get by on the XP. Since 50% of the time I fly for vacations with my family and luggage, I can never take an XP.

Now, Chuck, commence flaming. There isn't much flame bait there, but I am sure you will find it (just being sarcastic!!).

Fly safe.

 

[Live4flyng]

Hey Chuck,

He was comparing the 800XP and the X, not the XL and the X. So you are both right and can stop quibbling now .

Actually, I know the real reason they're not pushing the X's. Why would they want to sell a bunch of them when FO is about to buy a company that operates the largest fleet of X's in the world? After all, why else would RTS have been in CGF but to sell all the aircraft and owner contracts before the NJA pilots can strike? Better keep your resumes up to date.

That is a foolish statement if you think about what you just said. If I were RTS, I would sell Options the whole fleet of X's and the contracts too. NJA has already made it's money on the sale of the X's. If they sold the fleet to Options, it would probably drive you out of business since the contracts are different. It would be very costly at the end of those contracts when Options had to buy the airplanes back from the owners. Just to entertain your argument, if Options were to try and buy NJA, I would find a different job. That would be the day that Fractionals have failed all together and it's time to move on. I'm not worried about that though, because the business models are completely different between NJA and FLOPS. NJA buys a large order of airplanes at a reduced cost and makes a little money on the sale. FLOPS buys used airplanes and spends large amounts of money on paint and interior. If you spend $4 million on a used airplane and another $250K in paint and interior, you still have a $4 million dollar airplane starting operations with a loss. It's a very flawed business plan. My resume is always up to date, is yours?

 

[cgmason1]

Hey Chuck,

He was comparing the 800XP and the X, not the XL and the X. So you are both right and can stop quibbling now .

Your right I was thinking XL vs X not 800XP vs X.
My apologies.
Your 100% right the 800XP's cargo/luggage capacity is next to nothing in comparison-unless you strap stuff to the couch.

Fly Safe
Chuck

 

[Frac Daddy]

NJA buys a large order of airplanes at a reduced cost and makes a little money on the sale. FLOPS buys used airplanes and spends large amounts of money on paint and interior. If you spend $4 million on a used airplane and another $250K in paint and interior, you still have a $4 million dollar airplane starting operations with a loss. It's a very flawed business plan. My resume is always up to date, is yours?

Wrong. The vast majority of the recent shares that have been sold recently (read: since Raytheon took back over two years ago) have been in new aircraft. (400XP, 800XP, Legacy, etc.) You can go on believing whatever you want, though. Oh, and if you couldn't tell by all the smiley faces in FracCapt's post, he was joking about FLOPS buying NJA. You got wound up about nothing. For what it is worth, everybody should have there resume up to date in this business. Yes, even those at mighty NetJets.

 

[xrated]

Fact is, of the five X's operated for Flops, two are owned by Flops. The other three are leased/chartered. There does seem to be a fair amount of interest in the X from owners and we do quite a few demos. As far as comparing the X to the XP, simply put, there is no comparison. I'm not familiar with the price difference between the two, but if Flops wants to push the XP and not the X, better keep the owners out of the X. "ALL" and I mean every single Hawker owner we fly, love the X.

 

[Live4flyng]

Well,

I didn't get wound up about anything, just talking about the differences between the two businesses. Wasn't trying to start a pissing contest, so everyone can relax. You are right FRAC, everyone should have their resumes up to date in this business, and that is what I said. If you were offered a job flying for U.S. Airways tomorrow, would you take it? I know I wouldn't since they may not be in business much longer. Same thing is true in this business, you have to be prepared for anything. It seems very coincidental to me that the same company who just made a huge deal with NJA, is the same company that "The vast majority of the recent shares that have been sold recently (read: since Raytheon took back over two years ago) have been in new aircraft. (400XP, 800XP, Legacy, etc.)". If you can't see something happening between RTN and NJA, then you don't want to see it.

 

[Frac Daddy]

It seems very coincidental to me that the same company who just made a huge deal with NJA, is the same company that "The vast majority of the recent shares that have been sold recently (read: since Raytheon took back over two years ago) have been in new aircraft. (400XP, 800XP, Legacy, etc.)". If you can't see something happening between RTN and NJA, then you don't want to see it.

No, it has nothing to do with me "not wanting to see it." How is it that you, a line regular line pilot have this ability to see what is happening at the upper levels of management at my company? It really has to do with Joe-Schmoe line pilots (much like myself) on this board always claiming to have insight at what is going on at the upper-levels of managment. Sorry, but I doubt you have Santulli on speed dial. I only know what I said about our sales because I have talked to a few of our salesman. Beyond that, I know nothing. Nada. Zilch. Nor do I pretend to know where either company will be in five years from now. And what is this about a job at US Air? Where did that come from?

 

[Apeman]

Why don't you both open up a can of "shut the he// up! Your like a couple barbie dolls for christ sake! Be happy your working for whoever it is your working for---and be done with it.

 

[toa2mdt]

by i didn't mean to start anything like this!

anyhow, i go in on mon and interview tues. sounds like a real good deal to me. i have heard to study eagle and aspen charts. does anyone have these? can you send them via email in pdf or any other form, scan?

thanks for the help. didnt mean to start that thing about the X, XL and what not.

[email protected]

mike miller