Alaska stadium forced landing

[Immelman]

It may not have been a factor here considering the length of the field, but its worth noting that having flaps UP helps on braking action if you need to get stopped in a hurry.

Also, (never had to make a forced landing yet), the way I was taught was that you set flaps to whatever gives you best glide performance when the engine quits (after all, step 1 in a power loss is to establish best glide, right?).... then add in flaps once you're *sure* the field is made as a tool to steepen descent and lessen maneuvering on final.

 

[Singlecoil]

REmember, the main use of flaps is to make the approach steeper without going faster, it says nothing about the actual speed at touchdown. If you pitch the nose up and slow the plane down with no flaps you can decend at just as fast a rate and touchdown at around the same speed as with flaps

A question for you. Is your stall speed the same with flaps as it is without?

No it is not. Stall speed is lower with flaps. That means you can fly slower with flaps, impact the ground at a slower speed, and have less energy to dissipate. I really don't see how you can argue with that. That is why I said other things being equal , meaning two identical cases, one with flaps, one without. The one without will have less energy to dissipate in the crash.

 

[SDdriver]

Singlecoil,

YEs I do agree that stall speed is lower with flaps than without, but by how much in a 207? Maybe a few knots maybe 4 or 5, is that really worth it seeing as at that altitude you can't take them out once they are in? IF you put them in and then realize that you are to slow and don't have suffecient alt to drop the nose and gain speed then you are screwed.
I have flown the 207 and the 210, I can land both at just about the same speed with or without flaps. It is not as crucial for the use of flaps in a small light plane like that as it is in say a MD80 or something of that sort.
You can yes fly slower, but without an engine, if you get to slow with flaps you can't take them out or add power to correct, all you can do to try and gain speed to keep from stalling is to lower the nose , the whole purpose of flaps is to be able to lower the nose and not gain speed, DOES that make sense now? You find yourself 300ft from the ground and about to stall cause you have all those flaps in and you lower the nose, then you are not going to gain suffeicent speed to keep it from stalling before hitting the ground, without flaps you will..do you see my point now? You just made it for me if you really understand the whole use of flaps issue.

SD

 

[sauce]

SD Driver,
My parents warned me about debating on the internet but here goes!

Even if the stall speed only lowers by four or five knots(typical Cessna) this will make a tangable difference on your braking and rollout distance. Give me good reason to make this longer!

You said that it may be hard to regain airspeed with flaps, if low....how is this different without flaps?Even a low time student can maintain airspeed with fourty degree flaps.

If you look at the video of the approach, the airplane could have came in a little steeper and would have had more rollout distance to absorb some energy.

I not trying show the pilot in a bad light, I have been in his shoes and I agree, it happens pretty quick. I am suprised that some pilots with several thousand hours post some of the info that they do.

Fly safe!

 

[Singlecoil]

I can see I'm wasting my time here, as your use of the term AOA demonstrates that you don't know what angle of attack is either.

Back to the 207, the difference in stall speed is about 10 knots, from 60 to 70. Thats a 16 percent increase in speed which yields a 36% increase in kinetic energy. You may call that insignificant, but I don't. If your argument is that it is somehow dangerous to do a forced landing with flaps because pilots won't be able to hold an airspeed reliably, I don't think those kind of pilots get signed off to solo in the first place.

By the way, flaps increase lift and drag. The increased lift lets you fly slower, the increased drag lets you come down steeper.

 

[SDdriver]

I was using the term AOA loosly just to describe the angle of decent to the ground, with flaps you will have a higher angle of decent, ok sorry I figured you would figure out that by saying AOA I was meaning angle of decent.

I never said it was dangerious to do a forced landing with flaps, I simply said that sometimes (3 out of 4 time for me) that the use of them is not needed.

You are right about flaps increasing lift and alowing you to fly slower, I never said they didn't, My argument was simply that it is best to use them wisely. I was wanting to emphasis that for people that just think that when the engine quits and you are going down, don't just start throwing flaps in there just because the procedure says that you need to land with flaps. In an emergency, preocedure is not always best because conditions are rarley that of when testing was done and those procedures were developed. That was my point! I never said it was always a bad thing to use flaps, give me a break, I am just trying to make the point to only use them when you know that you can make your landing site and you know you will have sufficent glide speed and alt to make it to your spot. Using them to early can limit your options when you get down low and figure out things are not exactly what they seemed from 3k ft up.

Oh and I didn't realize that I couldn't have known all this and got to where I am today. IT bugs me sometimes when people can't read between the lines and not take the use of words so literaly when someone speaks on this board. My use of the term AOA for instance. AOA can mean a lot of different things can't it? It can mean the angle of the relative wind to the wing right? It can also be used loosely to mean other things. All realy depends on the context it was used in.

I think there is a large difference between a 150 with a student in it holding airspeed with flaps and a 207 loaded almost to the max and that pilot trying to hold airspeed with full flaps. IMagine the 207 with full flaps, to hold best glide with flaps, the guy would have to pitch the nose over at a huge angle to maintain the best glide speed. You said it yourself, flaps increase drag, don't you not want drag when you have no power??? SO you can try to get to a safe landing spot?? If I remember back from my solo training 16 years ago, you don;t use flaps until landing is asured and then only if they are nessesary. I was never taught to put them in way before landing was asured just so that I could get slower and decrese my kinitec energy.

Oh well I hope you see my point, I am not saying it is dangerious, I am only saying that use of them should be only when landing is TOTALY asured and only then if they are needed, I mean would you use them if you had a 75ft wide 100 mile long road with no power lines or cars on it and no obstructions?? Would you need to reduce that kintetic energy for that? I know that is a little far fetched, but hey anything can happen.

BY the way, what formula did you use to arrive at the 36% reduction of kinetic engergy?

I guess I have one thing left in my argument that you can't argue with, he did it with no flaps and everyone lived, guess there are 2 of us that disagree with you.

SD

P.S. Just cause you don't agree with me, or can't read between some of my loose comments about AOA, doesn't mean that I don't respect or appreciate your opinion and ideas.

 

[Andy Neill]

I'm guessing single coil used:

70 squared divided by 60 squared = 1.36

to get the 36% increase. I support that formula. The same will show a fourfold increase for a doubling of airspeed.

I'm in his corner on this one.

 

[Singlecoil]

Thanks Andy...

I arrived at the figure slightly differently, but achieved the same result. One of those quirks of mathematics.

I divided 70 by 60, then squared the quotient to get 1.36.

 

[sky37d]

SD Driver
I agree with your assessment. reduce kinetic energy by 36%, and hit a tree at 60, instead of a flat field at 70, and you have not done yourself any favors.

Everyone here is second guessing why the pilot didn't use flaps, and it very could well be that he was trying to stretch his glide to make the field, instead of landing in the trees.

I never use full flaps on my little twin until, and unless, I am assured of making the field with an engine failure. Someplaces, that means they can come in very late on final. As you point out, you can put them in, but taking them out, and regaining airspeed is a difficult proposition.

 

[A Squared]

SDdriver:

>>>>My use of the term AOA for instance. AOA can mean a lot of different things can't it?

Actually, No. Angle of attack means one thing and one thing only. To use it any other way is incorrect. If you use it incorrectly, it is understandable if readers conclude that you don't understand what angle of attack is.

It's a bit like your earlier statement: "REmember, the main use of flaps is to make the approach steeper without going faster, it says nothing about the actual speed at touchdown."
That is obviously incorrect, but then you get irritated when people conclude that you don't understand flaps. Seriously, what do you expect when you use terms incorrectly or make incorrect statements? How do you arrive at the expectation that people should "read between the lines" and see that you really do understand something when all they have to judge is your words and your words indicate that you don't understand?

 

[SDdriver]

How is my statement about flaps incorrect? So I didn't give the anal retentive full NASA technical explanation like some of you people always do on this board, so I don't know what the hell I am talking about right? Are you telling me it is wrong that using flaps will not increase your decent rate without increasing airspeed? IF you tell me my statement was incorrect because I didn't give the full explanation of the use of flaps, then ok, but my statement was not incorrect. Sure using flaps will give you a lower stall speed at touchdown, I agree, I don't think I could have gotten the ratings I have without understanding the use of flaps,

Look, I am not going to tell you that you don't know what the hell you are talking about or that you don't understand something just because you don't give a full detailed textbook description of it, I will take it that you understand the definition of it, but are only using part of the definition to suit your specific argument. That is my argument.

It amazes me that you (A squared) are not even saying anything about the argument here; you are picking apart my words and using that to attack my knowledge level about specific things. Why don't you contribute your opinion about emergency landings with or without flaps? Did you even read the rest of my statement? Probably not since I am so inferior to your amazing intellect.

Ok OK OK, you are all right and I don't know what the hell I am talking about..OooKkk. My point was made about the ORIGINAL subject, I didn't sign on to debate the correct definition of the use of flaps, or angle of attack. Oh by the way A Squared, do you think AOA just pertains to aircraft? I guess it can only mean the angle between the chord line of the airfoil and the relative wind right, as pertaining to an aircraft wing. AOA is an ANGLE right??
Hmm..Ok.

IF this thread is going to change to an attack on my specific words and statements not pertaining to the subject at hand then I will bow out, cause I don't have the time to write out a long explaination of something that I am sure you all ready know. Imagine that, I never said that your lack of explaining flaps and AOA meant you didn't know what you are talking about.

GEEZ YA'LL we have a couple of engineers here, imagine that!

NExt time your engine quits, do me a favor email me your specific calculations of your amazing reduction in kinetic energy just before impact, I would love to see those figures. JEsus, shut up and fly the plane.

SD

 

[SDdriver]

Oh by the way, Mr. Pocket Protectors:

I am not surprised so many people are leaving this board for other places. You can't even make a comment without some guy picking apart your statement to find anything and everything wrong with your comment and your use of words. I guess after reading this board for so long that shouldn't be a surprise to me.

At least someone got what I was trying to say, Thanks Sky37d, you actually read my post, got exactly what I was trying to say, and didn't pick it apart..Take lessons guys, Oh I mean Mr. Engineers, it can happen, You can do it!! ..


See ya..

SD

 

[Andy Neill]

Stop The Presses!!!

It turns out that SDdriver is right. There ARE other applications of AOA. Look at this!

http://www.nature.com/nsu/010510/010510-3.html

 

[stlpilot]

You know this conversation reminds me of the time my aviation professor told me when the s!i!t hit the fan in your airplane the captain never leans over to the copilot and says "Say George, what was your background and GPA in College? And could you carefully calculate the coefficient of friction to determine best glide and such and so forth"...... No he says "how the f--- do we get this airplane down now!" Good God folks he survived, or at least last time I checked he did . Monkey see, Monkey did! The END

 

[SDdriver]

AMEN Stlpilot!!!!

Gosh I should have just shut up and had you make my point for me!

SD

 

[flywithastick]

...and I'll be full flaps *if* I can make it to a decent landing location, and the smoke is still in the wires.

 

[A Squared]

OK Sddriver,

unbunch your panties and lay off your little hissy fit. OK?, Now, go back and read the thread, in particular, read your posts. Notice that it was you who introduced the subject of the use of terms, how they may be used and what is and isn’t correct. I was responding directly to questions you asked and statements that you made. Here’s the deal: If you don’t *like* discussions about the use of terms, don’t *start* discussions about the use of terms. OK, then, go back and re-read my post, notice that I didn’t say you didn’t know what you were talking about, I explained why *others* were saying you didn’t know what you were talking about. Don’t wonder about something in a post, then pitch a little tantrum when someone explains it.

Now, continuing the discussion that you started, and ignoring your juvenile ranting and raging, you ask what was incorrect about your statement; "REmember, the main use of flaps is to make the approach steeper without going faster, it says nothing about the actual speed at touchdown."

OK, remember, you asked, so don’t complain that someone is answering.
Inaccuracy #1: the main use of flaps is to make the approach steeper without going faster No, that is not the main use of flaps, Flaps are primarily to increase lift. If their "main use" was to steepen an approach, that could be much more easily accomplished with a simple speed brake (much simpler and easier to manufacture than flaps) Obviously, if their "main use" was to steepen an approach, they wouldn’t be extended on take-off.

Inaccuracy #2 "it says nothing about the actual speed at touchdown" No, actually the use of flaps "says"(sic) quite a bit about the speed at touchdown. In the airplane I fly, a no flap landing increases airspeeds about 20%. 20% isn’t "nothing" by any stretch of the imagination.

It is fascinating that you can insist that there is nothing incorrect about the statement, yet claim that you *do* understand that flaps decrease stall speed and touchdown speed...in the same paragraph even. I believe that psychologists refer to that as cognitive dissonance.

Regarding the AOA issue, remember, you were bemoaning the fact that singlecoil concluded that you didn’t understand what AOA is. I was responding to that by pointing out that if you use a term completely incorrectly, people *will* assume that you don’t understand it. Why you continue to insist that AOA can mean angle of descent, is beyond me. Let’s try to put in term you can understand: The word "engine" and the word "transmission" mean different things. If you go around talking about how you need to change the sparkplugs in your transmission, or that your engine won’t shift out of first gear, people are going to (understandably) conclude that you haven’t a clue how a car works. Now, the terms "angle of attack" and "angle of descent" are at *least* as different as "engine" and "transmission", if you use them interchangeably, people will assume you don’t know what you are talking about.

>>>>>"Look, I am not going to tell you that you don't know what the hell you are talking about or that you don't understand something just because you don't give a full detailed textbook description of it.

Ummmm, Yes, but, there is a vast difference between explaining only a part of something, and making incorrect statements. That distinction seems to be lost on you.

 

[Singlecoil]

Andy, you rock once again. Now I know why I don't swing a driver very well.

The funny thing is, all along this thread I have been saying this guy's actions can't be argued with. I was only arguing with people who were saying that a no-flap impact was a good technique. Of course best glide is established with no flaps, and a high pitch prop. However, ideally the impact should be as slow as possible, which would be with full flaps, and a low pitch prop.

 

[SDdriver]

Thanks A Squared,

You definantly showed me, wow my point was proven. I will get on back to the mental ward now.

See ya..

SD

 

[SDdriver]

BY the way,

A Squared,

You seem to do this to a lot of people on this board. You have a way of picking everything apart that a person says and then so over elegantly (like you are sitting there with a dictionary and a thesaurus) blast them over and over until you assume you have made your point. Well here it is, I don’t assume to know everything, I don’t assume that you agree with everything I say, I don’t assume anyone does for that matter. I post my comments here because that is what this place is for. Do I suffer from Cognitive Dissonance? I don’t know why don’t you ask Festinger. Do you suffer from some inadequacy that makes you feel that you need to pick everybody and what they say apart? Did your mommy not give you enough attention when you were a kid, or did daddy touch you where he wasn’t suppose to?

Did you notice that even though I may have not used the best WORDS to describe what I was saying, that a lot of people, most for that matter, understood. It was only you (as usual) and one other person that stepped in and started on me about m exact use of words. Like I said, from a search done, you seem to do this a lot. Are you trying to correct other people, because you were corrected to harshly in your childhood?

You speak as though you are sitting there looking up BIG and difficult words to put into your writing so that you can amaze and impress other readers, but really it comes out looking polished and foolish. Are you suffering from some inadequacy?

Maybe I shouldn’t have used the words I did so lightly, maybe in trying to say angle of decent I shouldn’t have referred to AOA. My mistake, I didn’t figure anyone was going to harp on it, but then again I forgot you were trolling the board.

To everyone on the thread, I apologize for not using the absolute correct terms so that it would not cause any confusion to any of you. I do think you all know what your talking about and I appreciate the chance to relay my opinion amongst all of you, even though I might not agree, I do respect all of your opinions.

A Squared, As far as ending my hissy fit, I will end it when I choose to unless you want to help me with that. I am sick and tired of watching you berrad people on threads. Why don’t you add to the topic of the thread not be the word and writing police ok. You are not fooling me with all of you fancy Latin terms and BIG words, to me it looks fake.

I am done on this thread and I appreciate the opinions of the OTHERS that contributed something to the thread besides a personal attack. A Squared, I would have I am sure appreciated yours also, but this I do not appreciate, so head off to another thread and make up for your loss in your childhood.


SD