Alaska stadium forced landing

[VNugget]

WOW! I just saw a video of this happening on TV, amidst a sports game. No one was seriously hurt.


http://www.adn.com/front/story/3562030p-3593307c.html



edit: Here's the MSNBC article, which has a video.

 

[banned username 2]

Why no flaps?

Wonder why he landed clean wing instead of using flaps to slow him down.

 

[VNugget]

Maybe his glide distance margin was too small to compromise.

 

[banned username 2]

Maybe his glide distance margin was too small to compromise.

Could be, but boy did he come in hot...

 

[VNugget]

It did. I have a link to it in my original post.

 

[Singlecoil]

Although there were no flaps down, seems explainable since he had one hand on the controls and the other one on the starter. Looks like he just ran out of hands. The prop stopped at about 30 feet or so, so he must have been going fairly slow for that to happen originally.

More like he had one hand on his St. Christopher medal. One hand on the starter? It looked like the prop was just windmilling to me. Hard to tell from that video. It supposedly failed over Cook Inlet, started again, then failed for good.

 

[Typhoon1244]

If you look at the pic of the engine after the crash it appears to be in feather.

A single with a feather-able prop? (Are there any?)

It just looks bent to me...

 

[sauce]

I'm suprised that some of you would think it is good procedure to be trying a restart at such low alttitude, given that a landing is seconds away!!

Guys, this is private 101 stuff! GET THE FLAPS DOWN!

From what I could tell(I wasn't in the cockpit) I was not to impressed the procedures or landing approach, no flaps, no slip to increase landing braking distance.

I have landed off field because of mech problems and have made some of these same mistakes...live and learn! This looks to be the work of a low timer...would be interesting to see his background. Bet you it was no old bush pilot!

 

[Singlecoil]

You can't feather a 207 prop. If memory serves, the emergency checklist is: switch tanks, turn on the electric fuel pump (check all three speeds of the electric pump), and check the mags.

It is always better to be lucky than good. He had an extremely tight area to put this down in. Baseball game on the left, soccer game on the right, a brick wall and a parking lot in front of him. Once he knew where he wanted to be, it may very well be that a late addition of flaps would have carried him somewhere else. 4 pax, one walked away, one had a broken arm, and two are bruised up. You can argue flaps or no flaps, but it is hard to argue with those results... Except for the fact that another fine 207 meets its end.

 

[Dot_AK]

I can't say much about 207's, not having ever flown one, but I can say about the area - He was definitely heading back to Merrill, and the only two spots not full of buildings, people, trees, or cars between the shoreline and Merrill are the graveyard by the Sheraton and the ball fields.

And given where he was heading in from - that was really the only good spot to land.

I'll leave the arguements about how close he was flying it to stall, lack of flaps, fuel exhaustion, and the rest up to people with more experience. *shrugs*

 

[Q200_FO]

I can't say much about 207's, not having ever flown one, but I can say about the area - He was definitely heading back to Merrill, and the only two spots not full of buildings, people, trees, or cars between the shoreline and Merrill are the graveyard by the Sheraton and the ball fields.

I can definitely vouch for that statement as I was born and raised in Anchorage. Also, a few student mistakes back when I was CFI'ing out of Merrill almost made me do a forced landing in the graveyard a couple of times. It can get prety scary But, I can say this about the 207's also having flown them in the bush. Those things are heavy dogs without an engine. When it quits, the spot you're currently over is the crash site. And you just can't throw in flaps in a 207 because they'll just kill whatever speed you had left and you'll really become a brick with wings. Anybody else with 207 time agree?

 

[stlpilot]

Why no flaps

It might be good thing he used no flaps. If you have ever seen an accident or accident photo of a high wing airplane (especially Cessna) there is a good possibility that if the wings break back on impact, with the flaps in the extended position, then they will go right through the back window and take out your rear passenger. Just my .02 cents and a bit of advice passed onto me a long time ago from an NTSB friend of mine.

 

[SDdriver]

SUre there are some singles that have feather for the prop. I guess though in most it is high pitch. Pull the prop lever al the way out and it will almost act like it is feathered, giving less drag. Myself, I would want as little drag as possible in that situation.

SD

P.S. I love the way people are ragging on the guy because he didn't use flaps, Jesus, the guy made a succesful emergency landing and saved the lives of all of his paxs, why don'tyou people who are giving the guy a hard time shut the F*** up and wait till it is your turn and use flaps. Were you there? Did you know the conditions? NO, so quit speculating and give the guy a hand!!!

 

[SDdriver]

BY the way,

HEY SAUCE!

You of all people are calling this guy a low timer? What do you think you are? Private 101 stuff? I can tell you haven't been in the real world of flying very long,(I can't wait to hear the story) In an emergency, you can throw the rules and procedures and all that stuff out the window after it is done, you do what you have to do to make a successful outcome. In 16yrs of flying I have made 4 off field landings due to MX, only used flaps in 1. Think about it, once they are in there they are there to stay, I am very hesitant to use them in those situations, who in the hell said you had to land a plane with flaps in the first place? Every situation is different, you can't just say, oh well I am going to make a nice downwind base and final and use my flaps accordigly like my instructor SAUCE told me to, get real, I give the guy a hand for having a successful outcome, he did what he had to do and it turned out for the best. Give the guy a thumbs up and a pat on the back and then go and teach some students the finer points about how flaps will save their life. Geezz

SD

 

[be36pilot]

I have about 600 Hrs in a T207, and I can tell you a 207 with no power is a rock. The Pilot did his job and got the plane down without killing anyone. Don't forget he had passengers onboard, who are no happy about what is going on. He also had to secure the plane for landing, Master, Mags, Fuel off, doors open. Passenger brief, all at the same time. As for the prop, I think he put it into low RPM. I would.

And remember any landing you can walk away from is a good landing.

 

[tuna]

But, I can say this about the 207's also having flown them in the bush. Those things are heavy dogs without an engine. When it quits, the spot you're currently over is the crash site. And you just can't throw in flaps in a 207 because they'll just kill whatever speed you had left and you'll really become a brick with wings. Anybody else with 207 time agree?

I have to agree with this. The 207 glides like a piano! Adding flaps when you are low and slow would be bad juju. I have about 200 hrs in them (Flying the ditch). I lost an engine once, at altitude, and found that flaps work better as a speed brake (get too high, add a little flap, lose some altitude, then take them out before you get too low. they are like barn doors). Not exactly how we are trained but sometimes, you need to improvise. werkd fer me (so did hukt on fonix!)

 

[A Squared]

Sauce,

The owner of this 135 outfit is a personal friend of mine and he has said on several occasions that his insurance policy requires a minimum of 3000 hours of Alaska time. (no it wasn't in the context of me trying to get him to hire me, besides, I have well over 3K of Alaska time, so that wouldn't work for brushing me off) so I have no reason to believe that he was bull$hitting me. So, we can infer from that this pilot probably had more than twice as much Alaska time as you have total time.

OK, and to back up DOT_AK, that is about the only place he could have put the ariplane down and survived, everything else around is buildings and trees.

 

[skylane58]

I will agree with the no flap idea. I flew 207's and fortunatly never had a problem that required a forced landing. However, I have had electrical failures in flight. No flaps is probably easier to land than with, when its heavy. I always got the feeling that if the engine did quit while I was heavy, the tail would drop, especially with flaps. It most likly wouldn't, but I never wanted to find out.

 

[Singlecoil]

Ok, I have to chime in here.

I have 1800 hours of 207 time. Yes, its heavy, but in a forced landing situation, your primary concern is kinetic energy. Let us not forget that when you double airspeed, you quadruple the kinetic energy you now need to disipate in a forced landing. Other things being equal, you are always better off having the flaps down and having a slower speed than you are having the flaps up because you have much less energy to dissipate in the crash.

In this particular case, you can't argue the results of no serious injuries.

That being said.

I'm a little concerned that a lot of people on here are saying a flaps up forced landing is a good idea. It isn't.

 

[SDdriver]

I didn't realize the only way to reduce kinetic energy and slow a plane down was to use flaps. THanks for that piece of advice.

And I hate to say it, but ALWAYS having flaps down in a forced landing is not ALWAYS a good idea. How can you make a statement like that? This guy did it, so I guess he was lucky hu?

"Other things being equal, you are always better off having the flaps down and having a slower speed than you are having the flaps up because you have much less energy to dissipate in the crash. "

So you are saying that you can't get the aircraft slow without the use of flaps? Come on...why do you think we pratice the use of no flaps? Is the aircraft going twice the speed everytime you make a no flap landing? I am sorry to say that if you can't land a plane without flaps at the same speed that you land with flaps then something is wrong.

REmember, the main use of flaps is to make the approach steeper without going faster, it says nothing about the actual speed at touchdown. If you pitch the nose up and slow the plane down with no flaps you can decend at just as fast a rate and touchdown at around the same speed as with flaps.. Now I am sure I am going to get a REALLY detailed explaination from someone on the technical aspects of flaps, that is ok you can save your breathe, I already know it, I am just concerned about how many of you are saying that you HAVE to use flaps and that it is ALWAYS a bad idea not to. WHat would you do in that 207 if the engine quit and you lost electrical power? NO FLAPS..wow I guess you would just be screwed then right?

PLease don't take my statements the wrong way, I am not trying to put anyone down, I do resepct and appreciate all of your opinions, I guess my main point is, in an emergency you do what you have to do, use flaps, don't use them, slip it, do 360's, roll it, loop it, whatever it takes to get it down and save everyones life. That is my point. And from experience in forced lamdings, there is not one that is like the other, sometimes you will need flaps and sometimes flaps will kill you.

Really good discussion guys, thanks for chimming in!!

FLy safe!

Sd