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Alaska Poolies?.....take 2

  • Thread starter Thread starter SeaSlam
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SeaSlam

Well-known member
Joined
Sep 25, 2002
Posts
71
All right guys...let's play nice.

The original thread was to see how many poolies...

-remain in the pool.
-will accept a training date if offered.
-are deciding to go elsewhere and why.

I know there were originally about 30 of us. I can't recall how many were hired before the new contract (I'm guessing 12 or so). I'm starting to wonder if waiting for my dream job is worth it while FedEx, UPS, SWA, and JBLU continue to hire like crazy. I know Alaska NEEDS to hire, and being on the front end of the bubble would be nice, but there seems to be no end in sight. Any thoughts?
 
Get a 737 type rating... Get out of the pool.Get a pen, fill out an application at SWA, FedEx, UPS, and then run. Alaska is not a good place to be right now, and will never be the company it once was. Every F/O lately has a line in the water for SWA, UPS, or FedEx. Just get out of the Pool because Bill Ayer and George (Douche)Bagley are lifeguarding, and there is lightning...
 
IMHO, put your apps out to the carriers mentioned above, though I don't want to add more competition. This WAS my dream job, but it died on May 1st. Pay is one of many issues why some/many FOs are looking to bail. I have lost all faith in our management. Atleast the companies mentioned above are making money that the bean counters cannot hide. I am aware that job security in this business is a big question mark, but here at Alaska, it's a big bold question mark, altleast for me. Again, just MHO. Good luck.
 
SeaSlam said:
All right guys...let's play nice.

The original thread was to see how many poolies...

-remain in the pool.
-will accept a training date if offered.
-are deciding to go elsewhere and why.

I know there were originally about 30 of us. I can't recall how many were hired before the new contract (I'm guessing 12 or so). I'm starting to wonder if waiting for my dream job is worth it while FedEx, UPS, SWA, and JBLU continue to hire like crazy. I know Alaska NEEDS to hire, and being on the front end of the bubble would be nice, but there seems to be no end in sight. Any thoughts?

We will hire again. Will this be the great place to work that it used to be...I don't think so. Ayerhead and the boys want to make this an average place that treats its employees below average. That will ensure turnover in the positions that are still not outsourced.

Should you come here, that depends upon what is best for you. I would not turn down a job from SWA, UPS, or FedEx. If I were you, I would apply everywhere.

I will wait for 6 to 12 months and see what happens. Not because I am on board with Ayerhead, but because I have been through too many ground schools and would rather be furloughed or fired. That way I can get the state to pay for some education. Maybe look into another field? I doubt every FO is applying everywhere and only a few will actually leave.

At these payrates, Alaska will not go out of business, it just won't be the nice place to work that it has been in the past.
 
Slam,

There were 30-something in the pool, and 18 have started class this year. That leaves about 18 more, give or take.

I know of at least one person who has turned down a class date already, and we have all read, from others on this site, that they know of some more folks as well.

Why, because they have accepted better offers or their quality of life looks better where they are, than with Alaska.

As for me, I am in the pool and haven't received any better offers. I'm hoping this doesn't drag out into 2006, but it sure looks that way. My patience is wearing thin...
 
"My Perspective" (to quote a good buddy)

I haven't waded in in a while but I'll post some thoughts on the job:

Right now this is not a good place to be. When I was hired it was not a good place to be. In between it was a great place to be. Why? Pay. Pay drives the mood of this place. Pay, like everything else, changes by the year. New hire pay sucks now, FO pay sucks now, Captain pay is average now. It'll go up again, but it may be a while. If I were in the pool right now I'd take the job if nothing else better were available. But personally I would leave if SWA offered me a job. FedEx and UPS would be a coin toss and I'll tell you why: I came to Alaska knowing that they at the time had the second lowest pay in the majors. I came here as my second choice behind SWA, and barely ahead of FedEx/UPS. That choice was based on one criteria alone: Job security. These airlines have a history of doing well and SWA is the king in that dept. Alaska, although historically trails far behind SWA, does much better than most other airlines.
The big thing that has changed recently is the attitude of the company. Pay aside, know one knows the game plan of mngmt and why it seems they are trying to run this ship aground with all the outsourcing, pay reductions, etc. The mood at this airline has gone downhill dramatically. Besides pay and stability SWA has a big edge in employee morale right now and that would drive my decision, and is a big reason why I am considering leaving four years of senority. Will I do it? First, it has to be an option. I'm not going to make any rash decisions. Alaska is going through some hard times right now, but there are a lot of advantages over even SWA. For example, in my opinion, being able to fly in Alaska is the most fun flying there is in an airliner. Also, where else can you work for a major as a line holder where the majority of the lines in a particular base are turns and you're home literally every night. We still get crew meals (not great but edible). Our layovers are 90% high vacation spots. In my opinion we have the best pilot bases in the industry. These are all pretty subjective opinions but they're food for thought. Speaking of pay, we got hit darn hard, But aside from SWA, compared to the rest of the industry, we do OK. But d@mn that hurt!

With regards to scope (or lack thereof) I'd like to have it, and I think we need it, but I'm not necessarily scared of it. I think if the airgroup wanted to give our 737's to Horizon they could have done that already. I'm not saying I don't want scope because I do, really bad, but I don't think our job will completely disappear without it.

We still have a very well funded A plan. It cost a lot to keep it, and whether it will be there when we retire is a flaming discussion, but the point is we still have it, it's healthy, and new hires get it also. It takes a lot of well managed 401K to outperform a well managed A plan.

When I was hired in 2001, the first jumpseat I rode on for training I introduced myself to the FO I was going to shadow and the 1st words out of his mouth were "what the he!! are you doing here?" Within a year later we had a 23% pay raise, this FO upgraded, and next time I saw him he couldn't stop talking about how much he loved the place.

I guess what I'm saying is give it time and hopefully things will heal here. If you have nothing lined up with SWA, Fedex, or UPS, then I wouldn't give up the Alaska thing. The pay will go up, it just might take a couple of years. But one thing I caution, don't expect to come here and be a captain in 3 years. It won't happen, even with the retirements. Right now we have 1500 pilots. Before the pay cut you needed to be about 900ish to upgrade. With the paycut I expect that to drop to about 800. We retire about average 55 a year for the next several years (63, 75, 53, 46, 51, 54, 49, 48, 50, 56). At that rate with no growth you're looking at 14 years to upgrade. Hopefully that is worst case because I expect there will be growth. But in 4 years here I have moved up about 100 numbers.
 
I've been at Alaska for 3 years now and I couldn't agree more with AV8INSTYLE. The pay cut hurts, to say the least. But as everyone knows this industry goes in cycles and many of the 'plusses' that Alaska has always had still remain. Unfortunately at the moment a management who values the morale of their workers and pay are not among them. However, we still have great bases, great equipment, very good trips and a great group of people to work with... with the exception of the rampers but hopefully they can get it together quickly. My Dad flew at Horizon for years so I've witnessed many of the ebbs and flows of airlines even though I'm relatively new to it myself, and in the early 90's when the Gulf War was going on and that recession hit and discounters like Morris and Mark Air were forcing airlines to cut costs (and pay) and oil was relatively expensive (although not nearly as bad as it is now) I remember my Dad telling me, "You'll never see pilot pay where they were 5 years ago as long as you live... the days of 250,000 salaries are history." But then the late 90's roll around, oil gets cheap, the dot com boom gets the economy moving and the next thing you know pilots are making very good money again. It's hard to imagine right now how things are ever going to improve but you can bet that eventually they will. In the mean time, despite the lack of leadership or vision from our management, in my opinion Alaska remains a secure and enjoyable (with regards to flying, equipment and people) place to work. Labor will be in a position of strength again one of these days and I don't plan on giving up my seniority and a company with good fundamentals out of bitterness or panic.
 
About the only thing that can be done to make it better is wait. 4-5 years down the road when contract talks have stalled and you are released into self help, that will be the opportunity to get back what you've lost.
 
Question for you guys...Especially the AK pilots on flightinfo. I'm gonna be the devils advocate for just a second (don't flame because I do know where your comming from). I understand being upset at the company for the pay cut, but wasn't the mediator the one who came up with the pay rates, and not the company? I understand that the company wanted the 25-30% pay cuts, but do you really think they thought that they would get them? I understand the pilots were offereing a 7% pay cut, but from what I understand everyone thought they would get about 15%, maybe 20% at the worst. Don't you think the company probably thought the same thing, that there would be some sort of compromise. That is what negotiations are all about isn't it. I bet the company was probably suprised they got the 26% they were looking for. So, shouldn't the blame go towards the mediator more so than the company? From what I understand, there was an offer on the table before the binding arbitration that was much better than what you ended up with, but was voted down, or not excepted from the union, in hopes of getting something better from the mediator. To me, it sounds like the union rolled the dice on got a crappy hand from the mediator. Don't flame me too hard, i'm just trying to figure this whole thing out. I understand that management is doing some chitty stuff right now that is killing company moral, and I think that is total bullchit. But, it sounds like the pilot group decided to gamble a little bit and got their asses handed to them, and now they are pissed! What I'm trying to say is that through negotiations, the pilots gave their offer and the company gave theirs. Both sides probably knew that they were lowballing the other to a certain extent (just like buying a car, you offer something low expecting to come up some). To me, that sounds like good negotiations. However, nobody expected the mediator to pull the chit he did (probably not even the company) so is a little bit of this anger misplaced? Again, i'm not trying to stir the pot, my info could be totaly BS, I'm just trying to get a handle of what's going on. I have no idea the other things that management has done (besides firing all the ramp workers) so I could be way off base. Im just trying to understand. Thanks guys!
 
gt1900 said:
From what I understand, there was an offer on the table before the binding arbitration that was much better than what you ended up with, but was voted down, or not excepted from the union, in hopes of getting something better from the mediator.

I do not believe this was the case. From what I understand there was never any complete offer that could have been a ta.
 
As ACA stated, it was not a complete offer at all. Regardless of what the actual offer was, it was very vague and left the door open for interpretation on a lot of the issues, which the company would surely abuse. The union wanted I believe was 30 days to discuss and iron out all the vagueness out of the companies proposal, but the company said NO! That shows how the company was not negotiating in good faith.
Yes the arbitrator did issue the final award, but what upsets me is the fact that the company wanted to (and did) bring our wages down comparable to those at bankrupt carriers. As far as I know, we are nowhere close to bankruptcy.
What upsets me the most are the current discussions with the company about vacation pay. Arbitrator said 3:43 minutes/day. The company has the audacity to say there is a typo in the award and it should read 3.43 minutes/day, a difference of about 20 minutes per day. The arbitrator’s award was clear on this issue, don’t change it to suit your needs.
No respect for management!
 
The last minute offer put on the table by management had so many holes in it it could have been mistaken for a piece of swiss cheese. Here are some of the highlights:

-18% across the board paycut with no snapbacks
-5 year (I think) contract with arbitration at the end
-Trips touching gone
-Reduced value for training/vacation pay
-PBS
-No Scope
-A plan gone, replaced with one of two options: 1- a 12% contribution into 401k for current pilots, 10% for new hires. 2- a 11% contribution for everyone.
-Out of pocket medical increased from 2.5% to 20%
-No disability retirement

Even knowing what I know know I wouldn't have voted for that crap.

Even as crappy as it was the union asked for 30 days to get any questions cleared up and the company promptly said no.

As far as what the rates ended up being, the rates we got were in fact the company's direct proposal to the arbiTRAITOR. The 26% is a misleading number. That's the average. Top captains lost 22%. Bottom FO's lost over 34%. Personally, I'm a 32% kinda guy.
The company actually convinced the arbiTRAITOR that SWA shouldn't be considered as a comparator airline because they made too much money. Even though they are the one airline that most matches the criteria set forth in the side letter.
Also, the company managed to convince the arbiTRAITOR that we lost 200 million last year, even though I got a profit sharing check.
By the way, I don't recommend arbiTRAITOR Richard (Dick) Kasher, although I heard he has retired since May 1st.
 
av8instyle said:
The company actually convinced the arbiTRAITOR that SWA shouldn't be considered as a comparator airline because they made too much money. Even though they are the one airline that most matches the criteria set forth in the side letter.

It's is simply Unbelievable to me that they convinced anyone to through out SWA but leave usairways and UAL in the mix, without having paid that bastard off. But make no mistake, we know exactly where the blame belongs. Bagley says we are in a downward spiral, well they know how to fix that problem. They now have a bunch of bitter fo's that will be working there for the next 30 or so years. We will not forget. Alaska spirit my A$$.
 
How long do you think it'll take Kasher to get a spot on the board???
 
av8instyle said:
The company actually convinced the arbiTRAITOR that SWA shouldn't be considered as a comparator airline because they made too much money. Even though they are the one airline that most matches the criteria set forth in the side letter.

Hmmmm: consistently profitable airline, best paid 73 pilots in the industry, highetst percentage of costs spent on employee compensation in the industry.........what's wrong with this picture?

Funny isn't it how everyone claims they need to be just like Southwest to survive until they're forced to acknowledge what what really sets SW apart is quality of their management. Those huge cuts had a lot more to do with keeping Ayer and Bagley in business than they did the airline.
 
Last edited:
Finances not included.

ArbiTRAITOR shall consider rates of pay of airlines that meet the following criteria:
Major airline as defined by the DOT
Comparable equipment
Contained in a Collective Bargaining Agreement
Direct Competitor (5% city pair overlap)

Nowhere does it say "they shouldn't be too profitable"
The ArbiTRAITOR also had the ability to consider other pertinent factors. Apparently he used finance in his award. Unfortunately he thought that bankrupt carriers were acceptable into the formula.
 

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