Airways looking to reduce RJ flying

[NEDude]

It's just funny how times change, in the early 90's the majors and regionals couldn't get 50 seater jets fast enough. Now they can't get rid of them fast enough.

Check your history. The RJ market was gingerly tapped into in the mid-90s by Comair. It did begin to grow in the late 90s. However it wasn't until 2000, when ACA announced it was tripling its RJ fleet to 108, ASA ordered 104 aircraft, and Comair went to an all-jet hub in CVG, that the RJ revolution truly exploded.

USAirways was a late bloomer in the RJ game, with most of them joining after the first bankruptcy.

I think the 50 seater will still have a place in the US market, but not nearly in the numbers we have seen in the last few years.

 

[dooork]

Wrong again! It is the ticket price! Now if the ticket prices were the same then almost all would take the Turbofan! Otherwise it's all about who offers the cheapest ticket, and the most frequency.

And it is SouthWest that Horizon has been competing with! And from what I hear, they are doing a great job against the 73's out west!

Some interesting numbers on this airplane! I hope US Airways orders about a 100 of them!

www.q400.com

I think you will get them. why would us airways not want PDT to have them?
You will prob fly them for $10 less an hour just like the 300.

 

[WSurf]

I think you will get them. why would us airways not want PDT to have them?
You will prob fly them for $10 less an hour just like the 300.

?????? We make more money each time we fly the Dash 8 300's Compared to the 100/200! We don't have a blended rate! What's your point? And if US Airways offers them to us at 300 rates then they will get a big no vote from me.

FO pay needs to be increased big time if we get bigger airframes

 

[regionaltard]

Good news for all of us -
US Airways is looking to reduce RJ flying, and hopefully pick it up with its 190s.

With mainline pilots willing to fly 100 seat jets for $90, the RJ's work here is done........

 

[Sig]

why would us airways not want PDT to have them?

(In Doug Parker's infamous speaking manner)
Two reasons why US Airways wouldn't want PDT to have them, as follows:

1. It fails the first test of US Airways: It makes sense, therefore it can't happen.

2. As long as a whore exists that would love to fly them for less than PDT will, there they shall go. PSA showed principle and balls regarding the 900s, which is exactly why MESA was mentioned as a carrier "that would love to fly them." Doug's words.

Inasmuch as he's a trifling and glib hack, he does have a bunch of investors to which he's beholden. Not that it would make more sense and further the cause in a better way by improving the wholly-owneds, it just makes sense to give away control of the product by being a shill for contract carriers and get flying done more cheaply.

There's the big failure. Herb took care of the troops, and they'll go to war. He was accountable to his employees and deftly earned their trust while paying them. I'm fresh out of give-a-shyt, and don't really care if this place tanks or floats. Either way it's still a turd.

You will prob fly them for $10 less an hour just like the 300.

Check reason two.

 

[Sig]

One more thing:

Wait until you see the meltdown of '06 in PHL. The game has come full circle at the express end of the airport... management hiring friends and firing/demoting competent folks, because ONCE AGAIN if you speak your mind about something that's dead wrong, you're out.

I predict a bloody massacre of lost bags and a heeeyoooge sick-out over the holidays.... and that's from one of the very best people we used to have training people.

Here's a cute tidbit: Watch what happens when the ice hits. Nobody (as in zero employees) are trained to deice, to move jetways on ice, etc.

Clear skies ahead. Feel that breeze.

 

[KeroseneSnorter]

With mainline pilots willing to fly 100 seat jets for $90, the RJ's work here is done........

Exactly!

Mgmt. used the SJS of thousands of regional and new pilots who would work for next to nothing to kill the wages at the mainlines. Now that they have accomplished it, there is no longer any need for the RJ's.

Sad thing is that the kids that flew the RJ's at any cost so they could make it to a mainline in effect screwed their own careers. Now mainline has to agree to fly them at any cost to get the flying back and try to reassert control over their own flying again.

Stephen Wolf circa 2000...."RJ's are scope busters"
Seigel circa 2002-03...."RJ's are union busters"

And here we thought that Managment only told lies and half truths!!!

 

[WSurf]

Exactly!

Mgmt. used the SJS of thousands of regional and new pilots who would work for next to nothing to kill the wages at the mainlines. Now that they have accomplished it, there is no longer any need for the RJ's.

Sad thing is that the kids that flew the RJ's at any cost so they could make it to a mainline in effect screwed their own careers. Now mainline has to agree to fly them at any cost to get the flying back and try to reassert control over their own flying again.

Stephen Wolf circa 2000...."RJ's are scope busters"
Seigel circa 2002-03...."RJ's are union busters"

And here we thought that Managment only told lies and half truths!!!

Couldn't have said it better! Agree 100%

 

[Smarta$$]

Exactly!

Mgmt. used the SJS of thousands of regional and new pilots who would work for next to nothing to kill the wages at the mainlines. Now that they have accomplished it, there is no longer any need for the RJ's.

Sad thing is that the kids that flew the RJ's at any cost so they could make it to a mainline in effect screwed their own careers. Now mainline has to agree to fly them at any cost to get the flying back and try to reassert control over their own flying again.

Stephen Wolf circa 2000...."RJ's are scope busters"
Seigel circa 2002-03...."RJ's are union busters"

And here we thought that Managment only told lies and half truths!!!

This would be the chicken or the egg arguement. What came first, The RJ or scope relief to farm out the RJ.

 

[KeroseneSnorter]

This would be the chicken or the egg arguement. What came first, The RJ or scope relief to farm out the RJ.

You keep getting into discussions about subjects that happened 5 years before you even started flying airlines. Just to be perfectly clear on the subject for you, there would have been no farming out if the regional boys were not willing to fly it for nothing. USAir was the last hold out to the RJ infestation. The mainline pilots held it off as long as possible, and the farm out you love to talk about prior to the BK rape job was a VERY limited number of airplanes with heavy restrictions on their use, seat numbers, and routes. (I.e. 50 seats, no hub to hub, no direct transfer of routes, etc etc.)

Even then it was under extortion to get that much scope relief, Managment said that to "Save the company and avoid BK, they had to have more RJ's and concessions"(Still limited with heavy restrictions on use) which once they got from all the unions they proceeded to take the company into BK 24 hours after the last "company saving concessions" anyhow. Then it was a judge sactioned gutting and massive transfer to "cheap labor".

Make no mistake about it Smarty, your job flying an RJ in express colors IS a direct result of that transfer of flying and the willingness of pilots like you to fly a jet for McDonalds wages. When there are thousands of pilots out there like you it is and was impossible to stop the train wreck.

As a result, you can now look forward to a career of low pay and that is even if you manage to make it to the mainlines, since just to get the seats back the mainline guys have had to resort to lowball tactics in the hope of years down the road being able to control enough flying to bring the payrates back up.

There is a reason that the RJ operators are hiring 500 and 1000 hours pilots....and it sure isn't because there is a shortage of high time pilots out there. Just that 8000+ high time furloughed guys refuse to fly a jet for chicken feed. Which is why the RJ went to the regionals in the first place.

Mainline pilots biggest mistake was trying to hold on to a decent pay rate for the RJ. They should have undercut the regional guys first and then we would still be in control of the flying and at least not be dealing with whipsaw tactics while trying to get the pay back up. As it is a 737 driver now makes less than an F-28 driver did 15 years ago.

 

[Smarta$$]

You keep getting into discussions about subjects that happened 5 years before you even started flying airlines. Just to be perfectly clear on the subject for you, there would have been no farming out if the regional boys were not willing to fly it for nothing. USAir was the last hold out to the RJ infestation. The mainline pilots held it off as long as possible, and the farm out you love to talk about prior to the BK rape job was a VERY limited number of airplanes with heavy restrictions on their use, seat numbers, and routes. (I.e. 50 seats, no hub to hub, no direct transfer of routes, etc etc.)

Even then it was under extortion to get that much scope relief, Managment said that to "Save the company and avoid BK, they had to have more RJ's and concessions"(Still limited with heavy restrictions on use) which once they got from all the unions they proceeded to take the company into BK 24 hours after the last "company saving concessions" anyhow. Then it was a judge sactioned gutting and massive transfer to "cheap labor".

Make no mistake about it Smarty, your job flying an RJ in express colors IS a direct result of that transfer of flying and the willingness of pilots like you to fly a jet for McDonalds wages. When there are thousands of pilots out there like you it is and was impossible to stop the train wreck.

As a result, you can now look forward to a career of low pay and that is even if you manage to make it to the mainlines, since just to get the seats back the mainline guys have had to resort to lowball tactics in the hope of years down the road being able to control enough flying to bring the payrates back up.

There is a reason that the RJ operators are hiring 500 and 1000 hours pilots....and it sure isn't because there is a shortage of high time pilots out there. Just that 8000+ high time furloughed guys refuse to fly a jet for chicken feed. Which is why the RJ went to the regionals in the first place.

Mainline pilots biggest mistake was trying to hold on to a decent pay rate for the RJ. They should have undercut the regional guys first and then we would still be in control of the flying and at least not be dealing with whipsaw tactics while trying to get the pay back up. As it is a 737 driver now makes less than an F-28 driver did 15 years ago.

So your still sticking to the "I was pressured to give up scope". Just Say no. Not every mainline that gave up scope was in bankruptcy. Regional pilots have always been paid terrible. Even worse than they are paid now. But they were flying turbo props. Some with as many seats as the 700 RJs. Paid very poorly to fly that 70 seat TP. In fact many of the pilots at the mainline that have a civilian background had previously flown for regional airlines. They flew 30-70 seat turbo props for mcdonalds wages and paid thousands of dollars for the job, but you dont criticize them because it had a different kind of engine? That does not make sense. It is more difficult to fly those turbo props than it is to fly our automated jets, yet you were OK flying those for peanuts.

The regional pilots have always been forced to fly for peanuts because they are subject to the lowest bid. If reagional A becomes too expensive then your mainline will just replace us with regional B. And what will you guys do or say about it. Nothing, you will just let it happen and look the other way. Then you will have the balls to come on here and critisize us for not raising the bar. Many have tried to rase the bar and have just been replaced. Air Wisconsin, ACA, Expressjet, comair and now Horizon. Or maybe you dont know enough about your industry.

Bottom line, regional pilots have always been forced to work for mcdonalds wages because they are subcontractors and subject to the lowest bid (or be replaced). And because we dont get backed or supported by mainline pilots who allow there companys to replace the better paid pilots with new cheaper ones.

You guys gave up the scope. Pressure or not. You gave it up. Regional pilots accepted jobs just like they always did. The only thing that changed was the number of planes and type of engine on the back. Both ALLOWED by your pilots to save your rates and retirement.

For the record, I agree that the pay is shameful at all levels of this profession. But I have to call BS on your blame of the regional pilots that are doing the same thing they did ten years ago. Flying for shatty wages, now they are being blamed for your mistakes and your lack of forsight and judgement. The blame falls on the mainline pilots that voted yes on scope relief and their management that is full of corporate criminals.

You continue to point out that I should have no opinion because I have been 121 for less than a year. I hope they dont let college professors teach history about the civil war unless they were there to witness all of the events. And surely they dont talk about the declaration of independence in school anymore because they have no teachers that witnessed the signing.

 

[KeroseneSnorter]

And what will you guys do or say about it. Nothing, you will just let it happen and look the other way. Then you will have the balls to come on here and critisize us for not raising the bar.

O.K. How is this, so far in 3 121 airlines 2 corporate jobs, and 2 135 jobs my doing nothing has consisted of:

Walked the picket line 5 times.

Lobbied to keep the RJ's at mainline...when that failed,

Lobbied to keep RJ's away from the contract carriers (like your airline) in favor of all jets at wholly owned companies that at the time had better pay rates.

Paid assessments and addional money onto Comairs strike fund in 99 to try and help them out, but in the end they were just undercut by another carrier with less gonads.

Been on strike once.

Refused 4 J4J Captian seats because of the pay.

Voted in favor of preferential hiring of Wholly owned pilots.

Have never paid for any training past ATP, that includes 2 corporate turboprops and 2 jet type ratings, refused to ever sign a training contract(that one has cost me two jobs already).

Refused a direct order from the owner of a corporate jet to "Hire" an F/O that was willing to work for free, If he is willing to work for free I figured that he was not worth the jet fuel required to haul his body weight around. Thought that one was going to get me fired, but the owner came around.

On the flip side, in return to the employers that put up with my "conditions" I have only called in sick three times, of which once was for surgury resulting from an injury. Never refused an off day call out when I could possibly make it. Always wore the uniform per the company requirements. Always tried my best to give a 100% professional appearance when in the public eye and when dealing with customers. and finally I never made the statement "Who cares, they get what they paid for".

So what have you done in your vast 12 month career? Refused a Go jetter a jumpseat? No of course not, since the Captain would have to do that.

The worst part of it is, you fail to realize that I am on your side. Everything I have said advocates getting more jobs back at mainline and increasing the pay rates. Something that will never happen as long as pilots like yourself keep accepting the jobs for substandard rates.

 

[Sig]

The worst part of it is, you fail to realize that I am on your side. Everything I have said advocates getting more jobs back at mainline and increasing the pay rates. Something that will never happen as long as pilots like yourself keep accepting the jobs for substandard rates.

Wow. Cogent post-a-thon from Kerosene; be careful, you just might keep up a streak of making sense and then... you're lost forever.

Beers on me if we ever meet, or if you want to come out to the beach the door's open.

 

[KeroseneSnorter]

Wow. Cogent post-a-thon from Kerosene; be careful, you just might keep up a streak of making sense and then... you're lost forever.

Beers on me if we ever meet, or if you want to come out to the beach the door's open.

What beach, and do you have a fishing boat?

 

[Sig]

What beach, and do you have a fishing boat?

Oh, somewhere north of the mouth of the Chesapeake, and south of the DE border.

And no, I don't have a fishing boat. I do, however, have an all-access pass to one of the finest rigs in Ocean City. I just bring coffee and doughnuts. Maybe a pack of smokes if he needs 'em.

One day we were tootling along, and he gets a phone call from "Bubba." I was in tears just listening to his side of the convo... 'Bubba' is WJ Clinton. I very nearly fell overboard.

Be nice to strangers- you never know who you're helping out. Ya might get a world famous fishing buddy.

And dangit, I wasn't finished. Even the fabulously wealthy, intelligent, and altogether awesome people in this world get into a bind, and a kind stranger in a tough time isn't forgotten. Lucky me, huh?

 

[BlueCanoe]

O.K. How is this, so far in 3 121 airlines 2 corporate jobs, and 2 135 jobs my doing nothing has consisted of:

Walked the picket line 5 times.

Lobbied to keep the RJ's at mainline...when that failed,
What you should have done is lobbied to keep ALL planes at ML

Lobbied to keep RJ's away from the contract carriers (like your airline) in favor of all jets at wholly owned companies that at the time had better pay rates.
You probably should have lobbied to create one seniority list with all the airlines owned by U, which would have taken care of your own....which no one did

Paid assessments and addional money onto Comairs strike fund in 99 to try and help them out, but in the end they were just undercut by another carrier with less gonads.
Really? I thought they just pissed of Delta, and Delta has been dismantling them ever since....

Been on strike once.

Refused 4 J4J Captian seats because of the pay.
Thanks for not taking a $60k job from an F/O making $30k. God knows the F/O needs the money more than you do...

Voted in favor of preferential hiring of Wholly owned pilots.
Why not vote in favor of one company one list?

Have never paid for any training past ATP, that includes 2 corporate turboprops and 2 jet type ratings, refused to ever sign a training contract(that one has cost me two jobs already).
Why'd you pay for an ATP? Once you have a commercial and CFI, you should not pay for another rating. Or were times tough?

Refused a direct order from the owner of a corporate jet to "Hire" an F/O that was willing to work for free, If he is willing to work for free I figured that he was not worth the jet fuel required to haul his body weight around. Thought that one was going to get me fired, but the owner came around.

On the flip side, in return to the employers that put up with my "conditions" I have only called in sick three times, of which once was for surgury resulting from an injury. Never refused an off day call out when I could possibly make it. Always wore the uniform per the company requirements. Always tried my best to give a 100% professional appearance when in the public eye and when dealing with customers. and finally I never made the statement "Who cares, they get what they paid for".
Good for you. Everyone needs more people to just do the job they are supposed to...

So what have you done in your vast 12 month career? Refused a Go jetter a jumpseat? No of course not, since the Captain would have to do that.I do educate the U pilots that I will make more at my contract carrier with no gonads than their 190 and 73 pilots...

The worst part of it is, you fail to realize that I am on your side. Everything I have said advocates getting more jobs back at mainline and increasing the pay rates. Something that will never happen as long as pilots like yourself keep accepting the jobs for substandard rates.
You're on our side when it benefits you, not my family. I wish Parker was smart enough just to let U tank, then buy the parts he wanted at auction. The east coast woulda been a better place

 

[KeroseneSnorter]

Oh, somewhere north of the mouth of the Chesapeake, and south of the DE border.

And no, I don't have a fishing boat. I do, however, have an all-access pass to one of the finest rigs in Ocean City. I just bring coffee and doughnuts. Maybe a pack of smokes if he needs 'em.

One day we were tootling along, and he gets a phone call from "Bubba." I was in tears just listening to his side of the convo... 'Bubba' is WJ Clinton. I very nearly fell overboard.

Be nice to strangers- you never know who you're helping out. Ya might get a world famous fishing buddy.

And dangit, I wasn't finished. Even the fabulously wealthy, intelligent, and altogether awesome people in this world get into a bind, and a kind stranger in a tough time isn't forgotten. Lucky me, huh?

LOL, I once was outrunning a thunderstorm with another boat about 50 miles offshore, after a formation run of about 10 miles to get on the backside of the thing we found out the other boat was a congressman. Never know who you will run into!

 

[KeroseneSnorter]

O.K. How is this, so far in 3 121 airlines 2 corporate jobs, and 2 135 jobs my doing nothing has consisted of:

Walked the picket line 5 times.

Lobbied to keep the RJ's at mainline...when that failed,
What you should have done is lobbied to keep ALL planes at ML

Lobbied to keep RJ's away from the contract carriers (like your airline) in favor of all jets at wholly owned companies that at the time had better pay rates.
You probably should have lobbied to create one seniority list with all the airlines owned by U, which would have taken care of your own....which no one did

Paid assessments and addional money onto Comairs strike fund in 99 to try and help them out, but in the end they were just undercut by another carrier with less gonads.
Really? I thought they just pissed of Delta, and Delta has been dismantling them ever since....

Been on strike once.

Refused 4 J4J Captian seats because of the pay.
Thanks for not taking a $60k job from an F/O making $30k. God knows the F/O needs the money more than you do...

Voted in favor of preferential hiring of Wholly owned pilots.
Why not vote in favor of one company one list?

Have never paid for any training past ATP, that includes 2 corporate turboprops and 2 jet type ratings, refused to ever sign a training contract(that one has cost me two jobs already).
Why'd you pay for an ATP? Once you have a commercial and CFI, you should not pay for another rating. Or were times tough?

Refused a direct order from the owner of a corporate jet to "Hire" an F/O that was willing to work for free, If he is willing to work for free I figured that he was not worth the jet fuel required to haul his body weight around. Thought that one was going to get me fired, but the owner came around.

On the flip side, in return to the employers that put up with my "conditions" I have only called in sick three times, of which once was for surgury resulting from an injury. Never refused an off day call out when I could possibly make it. Always wore the uniform per the company requirements. Always tried my best to give a 100% professional appearance when in the public eye and when dealing with customers. and finally I never made the statement "Who cares, they get what they paid for".
Good for you. Everyone needs more people to just do the job they are supposed to...

So what have you done in your vast 12 month career? Refused a Go jetter a jumpseat? No of course not, since the Captain would have to do that.I do educate the U pilots that I will make more at my contract carrier with no gonads than their 190 and 73 pilots...

The worst part of it is, you fail to realize that I am on your side. Everything I have said advocates getting more jobs back at mainline and increasing the pay rates. Something that will never happen as long as pilots like yourself keep accepting the jobs for substandard rates.
You're on our side when it benefits you, not my family. I wish Parker was smart enough just to let U tank, then buy the parts he wanted at auction. The east coast woulda been a better place

1. When I started the turboprops had been at regionals for almost 20 years, can't travel back in time, sorry. (First regional partners came on line in the mid seventies)

2. We tried that first, PDT and ALG didn't want to, PSA was receptive but it got no where with Mgmt.

3. ASA was a player also.

4. Really, the last one I passed on was while I was unemployed with a mortgage and a kid. Didn't know that a couple of jet types paid money every month when you are not working....How do I file for something like that?

5. See # 2

6. Had to pay for the examiner. The airplane was provided free of charge by the 135 freight company I was working for. No examining authority at the company at the time.

7. Exactly.

8. Which wouldn't be the case if there were not so many pilots willing to fly it so cheap that the mainlines had to resort to that to get the flying back. F-28 payscale in the 90's 2nd year capt.= $92 an hour, TSA Payscale now 2nd year Capt. Emb 145= $57 How do you suppose the RJ rate from the 90's was slashed so much?

9. If benifitting your family is a 30 year career flying an RJ instead of being able to move on to bigger better paying equipment, then I guess you are right. The regionals have become a career now. We should have let it tank in 2002 instead of letting the flying go out to 7 or 8 different carriers. Take out 9 airlines at one pop would have done a lot to slow down the race to the bottom. Plus the gap may have been filled by somebody like SWA that still has high pay rates and controls all their flying. Sure it would have been a serious set back in the short term to careers, but probably less painful and long lasting than the current situation is going to be.

I have been on both sides of the fence, regional and mainline. My views have not changed just because of which one I was flying. I was saying the same things as a TP Capt. at the beginning of the RJ boom. RJ's should be at the mainlines. It is what is best for your career and my career. Had the line been held by both mainline AND regional pilots we would have our one seniority list that starts as an RJ F/O and retires as a widebody Capt. Most of my peers at the regional however were slobbering over Comairs first RJ's and could not wait until they had the chance to get them in our paint job.

 

[BlueCanoe]

I'm not done....

I'm tired of mainline guys who tell us how to stick it to the man, yet 5 years ago wouldn't do SQUAT during the fat contract years to help all of us out. Now they're in a pinch and we need to give them OUR captain seats, WE need to quit our jobs, it's our fault they screwed themselves.

Your collective lack of foresight and planning. Your collective total inablity for strategic thinking beyond the $$$ in the next contract put YOU squarely in this position. Reassign blame however you want.

Hell, most of the time when we jumpseat, even as your own express carrier, most people ask who we fly for. There's some serious involvement!!

These RJ F/Os with no "gonads" make more than the 19 seat captains did. Is the wage proper? We all know the answer. Here's the question: What did any of our all-knowing mainline brothers do to further the regionals?
All you have done is surrendered scope to increase our paychecks.

US pilots are the worst. You openly mock your management about their archane ideals, yet in the next breath you spew your own archane idiocracy. Still talking about SWA as a fad after they ran you out of BWI and ISLIP.

Yup US faced hard-times, but why don't you find any sympathy from the commuter pilots? Because your worst times are far-better than our best times. You haven't done squat to help us and now you have the stones to make demands of companies that 4 years ago you didn't know existed.

Good luck....you'll need it....

 

[BlueCanoe]

1. When I started the turboprops had been at regionals for almost 20 years, can't travel back in time, sorry. (First regional partners came on line in the mid seventies)
Yup...I know...why did they let it get started? Too much pride to fly a prop....

2. We tried that first, PDT and ALG didn't want to, PSA was receptive but it got no where with Mgmt.
First hurdle I encounter, I'd quit too. But then if the offer was a staple, I wouldn't be receptive either. It was no benevolent integration.

3. ASA was a player also.
Only because DL wanted to dismantle CMR. I'm sure you flew into the CVG ghost town.

4. Really, the last one I passed on was while I was unemployed with a mortgage and a kid. Didn't know that a couple of jet types paid money every month when you are not working....How do I file for something like that?
Huh...interesting. Yet some kid caught in the you need experience to get a job, and how do I get the experience cycle, is a sell-out.

5. See # 2

6. Had to pay for the examiner. The airplane was provided free of charge by the 135 freight company I was working for. No examining authority at the company at the time.
I personally would have quit that company if they weren't willing to provide required job qualifications. I'd have felt like I should toe the 135 line, or is that different

7. Exactly.

8. Which wouldn't be the case if there were not so many pilots willing to fly it so cheap that the mainlines had to resort to that to get the flying back. F-28 payscale in the 90's 2nd year capt.= $92 an hour, TSA Payscale now 2nd year Capt. Emb 145= $57 How do you suppose the RJ rate from the 90's was slashed so much?
Is that the reason? I thought it was because mainline pilot were insulted to fly anything less than 100000# (thus MDA). I also thought it was because of a scope about as strong as a wet tissue to protect the pay of the top 5% of the senioirty list. Oh yeah, SWA was dragging you to school and leadership on either side believed in the Maginot Line of the East coast market.

9. If benifitting your family is a 30 year career flying an RJ instead of being able to move on to bigger better paying equipment, then I guess you are right. The regionals have become a career now. We should have let it tank in 2002 instead of letting the flying go out to 7 or 8 different carriers. Take out 9 airlines at one pop would have done a lot to slow down the race to the bottom. Plus the gap may have been filled by somebody like SWA that still has high pay rates and controls all their flying. Sure it would have been a serious set back in the short term to careers, but probably less painful and long lasting than the current situation is going to be.
I doubt the contractors would go away. This is where you have your head in the sand. Our planes are painted to match the big boys. If U goes away and JimBob airlines flies those planes on those routes, guess what. Our planes will say JimBob Connection and we will keep our seniority while you work for JimBob Air for 1st year pay

I have been on both sides of the fence, regional and mainline. My views have not changed just because of which one I was flying. I was saying the same things as a TP Capt. at the beginning of the RJ boom. RJ's should be at the mainlines. It is what is best for your career and my career.
Unfortunately, mainlines giving up most domestic routes kind of makes my career for me. Now somekid that is 15 and just starting may have a gift career. Good for him

Had the line been held by both mainline AND regional pilots we would have our one seniority list that starts as an RJ F/O and retires as a widebody Capt. Most of my peers at the regional however were slobbering over Comairs first RJ's and could not wait until they had the chance to get them in our paint job.
I don't care what I fly. I care about W2 and days off, which are both superior to any mainline position that will come available in the next 2-3 years. But what's the hardon with the JET engine? Why not hire some kid into a 1900 F/O seat and have him retire on the fatboy? Mainline guys only care about RJs because they look similar to their airplanes. The really get their panties in a wad with the 170 type. Even though it's the same mission profile as the CR7, it looks an awful lot like a 73 or a bus.

 

[KeroseneSnorter]

1. When I started the turboprops had been at regionals for almost 20 years, can't travel back in time, sorry. (First regional partners came on line in the mid seventies)
Yup...I know...why did they let it get started? Too much pride to fly a prop....

Don't know, you would have to ask them, but at Usair when it started the mainline was still flying Convairs.

2. We tried that first, PDT and ALG didn't want to, PSA was receptive but it got no where with Mgmt.
First hurdle I encounter, I'd quit too. But then if the offer was a staple, I wouldn't be receptive either. It was no benevolent integration.

PDT wanted DOH integration into the mainline. Dash 8 captian straight to 757 Captain. Plus the three couldn't agree on how to integrate the seniority lists among themselves. So in the end PSA got the airplanes and PDT and ALG got the shaft.

3. ASA was a player also.
Only because DL wanted to dismantle CMR. I'm sure you flew into the CVG ghost town.

In favor of yet another group willing to fly it for next to nothing...hmm I see a pattern here.

4. Really, the last one I passed on was while I was unemployed with a mortgage and a kid. Didn't know that a couple of jet types paid money every month when you are not working....How do I file for something like that?
Huh...interesting. Yet some kid caught in the you need experience to get a job, and how do I get the experience cycle, is a sell-out.

Not sure what you are saying here, I passed on it even though it would have helped at the time.

5. See # 2

6. Had to pay for the examiner. The airplane was provided free of charge by the 135 freight company I was working for. No examining authority at the company at the time.
I personally would have quit that company if they weren't willing to provide required job qualifications. I'd have felt like I should toe the 135 line, or is that different

135 Piston skippy, no requirement for an ATP. It cost them money to allow us to do the check rides in the planes. However tne job did pay more than RJ F/O does now.

7. Exactly.

8. Which wouldn't be the case if there were not so many pilots willing to fly it so cheap that the mainlines had to resort to that to get the flying back. F-28 payscale in the 90's 2nd year capt.= $92 an hour, TSA Payscale now 2nd year Capt. Emb 145= $57 How do you suppose the RJ rate from the 90's was slashed so much?
Is that the reason? I thought it was because mainline pilot were insulted to fly anything less than 100000# (thus MDA). I also thought it was because of a scope about as strong as a wet tissue to protect the pay of the top 5% of the senioirty list. Oh yeah, SWA was dragging you to school and leadership on either side believed in the Maginot Line of the East coast market.

Check the weights on an F-28, it was mainline. Actually it was the top 50% and it was not pay, it was retirement for them and about 2000 already retired pilots. Facts are facts, the mass of pilots willing to fly an RJ for crap wages was the main driving factor.

9. If benifitting your family is a 30 year career flying an RJ instead of being able to move on to bigger better paying equipment, then I guess you are right. The regionals have become a career now. We should have let it tank in 2002 instead of letting the flying go out to 7 or 8 different carriers. Take out 9 airlines at one pop would have done a lot to slow down the race to the bottom. Plus the gap may have been filled by somebody like SWA that still has high pay rates and controls all their flying. Sure it would have been a serious set back in the short term to careers, but probably less painful and long lasting than the current situation is going to be.
I doubt the contractors would go away. This is where you have your head in the sand. Our planes are painted to match the big boys. If U goes away and JimBob airlines flies those planes on those routes, guess what. Our planes will say JimBob Connection and we will keep our seniority while you work for JimBob Air for 1st year pay

And lose your fuel bills being paid by mainline, and your guaranteed revenue per flight from mainline, and your reservations system, etc etc. The contract carriers would have been Independance air, we all saw how well going solo worked out for them.

I have been on both sides of the fence, regional and mainline. My views have not changed just because of which one I was flying. I was saying the same things as a TP Capt. at the beginning of the RJ boom. RJ's should be at the mainlines. It is what is best for your career and my career.
Unfortunately, mainlines giving up most domestic routes kind of makes my career for me. Now somekid that is 15 and just starting may have a gift career. Good for him

Ah and what a great career it is, RJ driver that tops out at 90k if you are lucky. By the way, that 15 year old will be the one undercutting you and taking your flying......Ever heard of Go Jets?



Had the line been held by both mainline AND regional pilots we would have our one seniority list that starts as an RJ F/O and retires as a widebody Capt. Most of my peers at the regional however were slobbering over Comairs first RJ's and could not wait until they had the chance to get them in our paint job.
I don't care what I fly. I care about W2 and days off, which are both superior to any mainline position that will come available in the next 2-3 years. But what's the hardon with the JET engine? Why not hire some kid into a 1900 F/O seat and have him retire on the fatboy? Mainline guys only care about RJs because they look similar to their airplanes. The really get their panties in a wad with the 170 type. Even though it's the same mission profile as the CR7, it looks an awful lot like a 73 or a bus.

Thats the problem, you have no idea what it used to be. You have been fed a $hit sandwich for so long that you now think it is top shelf beef. I bet you really think that 70k a year is BIG money huh? Sad.

........

 

[Smarta$$]

Check the weights on an F-28, it was mainline. Actually it was the top 50% and it was not pay, it was retirement for them and about 2000 already retired pilots. Facts are facts, the mass of pilots willing to fly an RJ for crap wages was the main driving factor.

........

The mass quantity of pilots willing to fly an RJ for crap wages was the main driving factor huh? Why were you 30-70 turbo prop drivers willing to fly for nothing not a problem? If I wanted to fly a 747 for nothing right now could I? No because of scope. Scope should not have been relaxed no matter what. Cheap pilots doesn't make you give away jets. Cheap regional pilots have been there for 20 years. Nothing has changed accept the type of engine you have given them to fly.

 

[KeroseneSnorter]

Check the weights on an F-28, it was mainline. Actually it was the top 50% and it was not pay, it was retirement for them and about 2000 already retired pilots. Facts are facts, the mass of pilots willing to fly an RJ for crap wages was the main driving factor.




If I wanted to fly a 747 for nothing right now could I? No because of scope.

Sure you can, Focus Air, Southern Air, Tradewinds, They all pay on about the same reletive pay scale as the RJ. They are beginning to do to Atlas, Polar, United and NWA freight division and other heavy lift what the RJ did to the major payscales.

It is not just a 121 passenger hauling problem. Been out checking on Corporate jobs lately? Every sector of the aviation community is feeling the RJ backlash. What effects one eventually gets all. As long as pilots are willing to fly for those wages, nobody has a decent career anymore.

I can see I am talking to a brick wall though, we are headed nowhere but down if the majority feel as you guys do. This was once a nice career.

Have fun arguing about it while your career heads down the bowl.

 

[Smarta$$]

Sure you can, Focus Air, Southern Air, Tradewinds, They all pay on about the same reletive pay scale as the RJ. They are beginning to do to Atlas, Polar, United and NWA freight division and other heavy lift what the RJ did to the major payscales.

It is not just a 121 passenger hauling problem. Been out checking on Corporate jobs lately? Every sector of the aviation community is feeling the RJ backlash. What effects one eventually gets all. As long as pilots are willing to fly for those wages, nobody has a decent career anymore.

I can see I am talking to a brick wall though, we are headed nowhere but down if the majority feel as you guys do. This was once a nice career.

Have fun arguing about it while your career heads down the bowl.

Wait now. I have mentioned the turbo prop drivers that have been flying for peanuts at least two times now but you ignore me. TP drivers have been paid peanuts long before the RJs were given away. Regional pilots have always been paid horribly. You were a regional pilot once. As were many of your mainline buddys. Were you building new homes and buying new corvettes on your regional salary. I didnt think so. So now that you have given regional pilots a new type of engine, suddenly you think we should not accept the regional jobs that you all accept ten years ago. Just because you gave up a jet airframe instead of a prop airframe.

BOTTOM LINE. I dont care what I fly, I care what I get paid. How ever you want to spin that statement. The point is that you did not have a problem with being a regional pilot when it was in your best interest but now you have a problem with the pilots at this stage of the game. The only change was that you gave feed jets instead of props. They dont even seat more people in many cases. Who has the hardon for jets. I think it is you and not the SJS people you want to blame!

 

[KeroseneSnorter]

Wait now. I have mentioned the turbo prop drivers that have been flying for peanuts at least two times now but you ignore me. TP drivers have been paid peanuts long before the RJs were given away. Regional pilots have always been paid horribly. You were a regional pilot once. As were many of your mainline buddys. Were you building new homes and buying new corvettes on your regional salary. I didnt think so. So now that you have given regional pilots a new type of engine, suddenly you think we should not accept the regional jobs that you all accept ten years ago. Just because you gave up a jet airframe instead of a prop airframe.

BOTTOM LINE. I dont care what I fly, I care what I get paid. How ever you want to spin that statement. The point is that you did not have a problem with being a regional pilot when it was in your best interest but now you have a problem with the pilots at this stage of the game. The only change was that you gave feed jets instead of props. They dont even seat more people in many cases. Who has the hardon for jets. I think it is you and not the SJS people you want to blame!

Turboprops were not flying CLT to DEN, or LAX to DTW either. The problem really came about when the RJ grew big enough legs to take the Airbus and 737 routes. If it paid well who cares as long as the pax can stand it. Willing to fly that kind of leg for Turboprop rates is the problem.

I was out on jogging thinking about this thread....kind of sad but oh well. It dawned on me that my generation of mainline pilot is the only ones who ever stuck up for the regional guys at all. The senior guys on our list didn't and what little support you guys did get came from ones like me who came from the regionals. It occured to me why I am even bothering? I already have a number on two seniority lists. Aside from a total airline collapse in the US, I am guaranteed to finish out my career on a widebody with a fairly decent payscale. So really I could give two $hits if you guys want to fly a whole career on the glorious payscales you now have.

Maybe the senior guys had a point, why bother to help anybody that will not help themselves.

You boys have a nice day.

 

[ex j-41]

So really I could give two $hits if you guys want to fly a whole career on the glorious payscales you now have.

And that is why we get paid what we do. As long as you get yours...

 

[Smarta$$]

Turboprops were not flying CLT to DEN, or LAX to DTW either. The problem really came about when the RJ grew big enough legs to take the Airbus and 737 routes. If it paid well who cares as long as the pax can stand it. Willing to fly that kind of leg for Turboprop rates is the problem.

I was out on jogging thinking about this thread....kind of sad but oh well. It dawned on me that my generation of mainline pilot is the only ones who ever stuck up for the regional guys at all. The senior guys on our list didn't and what little support you guys did get came from ones like me who came from the regionals. It occured to me why I am even bothering? I already have a number on two seniority lists. Aside from a total airline collapse in the US, I am guaranteed to finish out my career on a widebody with a fairly decent payscale. So really I could give two $hits if you guys want to fly a whole career on the glorious payscales you now have.

Maybe the senior guys had a point, why bother to help anybody that will not help themselves.

You boys have a nice day.

I DO NOT want to fly a "whole career on the glorious pay scale of a regional."
I do appreciate any support and help from anyone including mainline. I do think this industry's pay is a joke. I am very thankful for pilots like you that think we all should stand up for a decent paycheck.

Basically, we agree on more than you think. We just disagree on a few points. Great talking with you, I am sure we will speak again. Now if I could just get the motivation to go run!

 

[KeroseneSnorter]

Now if I could just get the motivation to go run!

It gets harder and harder every year! Getting older sucks!!!

May have to unload the dirt bike before long, the knees have started to rebel after only an hour or so on the track anymore the spirit is willing and the %$#@* knees are wimping out!! Maybe I can get a good trade in on a Rascal scooter!!

 

[Smarta$$]

It gets harder and harder every year! Getting older sucks!!!

May have to unload the dirt bike before long, the knees have started to rebel after only an hour or so on the track anymore the spirit is willing and the %$#@* knees are wimping out!! Maybe I can get a good trade in on a Rascal scooter!!

Make sure to get a HEMI in that rascal!

 

[flyforfood77777]

O.K. How is this, so far in 3 121 airlines 2 corporate jobs, and 2 135 jobs my doing nothing has consisted of:

Walked the picket line 5 times.

Lobbied to keep the RJ's at mainline...when that failed,

Lobbied to keep RJ's away from the contract carriers (like your airline) in favor of all jets at wholly owned companies that at the time had better pay rates.

Paid assessments and addional money onto Comairs strike fund in 99 to try and help them out, but in the end they were just undercut by another carrier with less gonads.

Been on strike once.

Refused 4 J4J Captian seats because of the pay.

Voted in favor of preferential hiring of Wholly owned pilots.

Have never paid for any training past ATP, that includes 2 corporate turboprops and 2 jet type ratings, refused to ever sign a training contract(that one has cost me two jobs already).

Refused a direct order from the owner of a corporate jet to "Hire" an F/O that was willing to work for free, If he is willing to work for free I figured that he was not worth the jet fuel required to haul his body weight around. Thought that one was going to get me fired, but the owner came around.

On the flip side, in return to the employers that put up with my "conditions" I have only called in sick three times, of which once was for surgury resulting from an injury. Never refused an off day call out when I could possibly make it. Always wore the uniform per the company requirements. Always tried my best to give a 100% professional appearance when in the public eye and when dealing with customers. and finally I never made the statement "Who cares, they get what they paid for".

So what have you done in your vast 12 month career? Refused a Go jetter a jumpseat? No of course not, since the Captain would have to do that.

The worst part of it is, you fail to realize that I am on your side. Everything I have said advocates getting more jobs back at mainline and increasing the pay rates. Something that will never happen as long as pilots like yourself keep accepting the jobs for substandard rates.

If you what you say is true, you have my undying respecting without even meeting you. The sad part is, you are the minority. I think that the entire regional industry is a joke, but there are still some pilot groups that hold the line. The regionals are without question a place to get your PIC, then get out as fast as you can.

I don't know if it still due to my naiveity, but I am totally happy with my job, my company, work rules, and overall quality of life, despite the fact that I think that I am somewhat underpaid. I hope to see upgrade in 3-4 years. However, my company's future is somewhat in jeopardy, and I may never see an upgrade, or the stupid dream of flying a Boeing someday. But oh well, I chose to be here and I am going to make the best of it while it lasts.