AirTran under Pressure from Delta

[ACL65PILOT]

Are you nuts. He is the one who is responsible for our route rework.

 

[Eagle757shark]

No AAI and LUV cannot compete together in ATL. It will be the death nail in AAI in ATL.
I believe that USA has international out of PHL. Different feed, O and D and markets. Kind of like F9, LUV, and UAL out of DEN.
DAL and AAI can compete. DAL and LUV can compete, but putting LUV in ATL with DAL and AAI, will lead to one being thinned out.

Dude, what the hell are you talking about? AirTran and Southwest compete out of BWI and MDW just fine. Atlanta may become a city that Southwest wants to add to there nationwide network. If it is, it will be like all the other cities AirTran and Southwest fly to and compete on the same routes. Airlines build networks and route structures for their customers. It is not solely about trying to put one company out of business. It's like you are saying ooooh if Southwest comes to Atlanta, AirTran is in trouble! Where do you get this crap. It's like your manhood is being challenged here. Grow up! Southwest will probable provide service to Atlanta by the end of next year. If they do, Delta and AirTran will be competing with Southwest like they do in every other city the three carriers compete out of.

 

[ASA_DFW]

CL-65 doesn't need to grow up. He is a pretty smart guy and knows what is going on at Delta. If Southwest came to ATL, AAI would be in trouble.

You talk about how AAI and SWA work together in MDW and BWI. Who else do they compete with out of those markets? Nobody. You can't have three airlines out of ATL. Delta will not allow this to happen.

 

[Secret Squirrel]

CL-65 doesn't need to grow up. He is a pretty smart guy and knows what is going on at Delta. If Southwest came to ATL, AAI would be in trouble.

You talk about how AAI and SWA work together in MDW and BWI. Who else do they compete with out of those markets? Nobody. You can't have three airlines out of ATL. Delta will not allow this to happen.

Actually it is SWA, AAI, and Delta in Orlando and it looks like Delta is reducing their flying.

 

[Eagle757shark]

CL-65 doesn't need to grow up. He is a pretty smart guy and knows what is going on at Delta. If Southwest came to ATL, AAI would be in trouble.

You talk about how AAI and SWA work together in MDW and BWI. Who else do they compete with out of those markets? Nobody. You can't have three airlines out of ATL. Delta will not allow this to happen.

So him knowing about what is going on at Delta has to do with what? Hell as far as we know, Southwest may merge with AirTran in the future, I don't know and really don't care. I didn't say Southwest and AirTran work together in MDW and BWI. Southwest and AirTran compete against one another in MDW and BWI. They also compete against one another along with US Airways in PHL. They compete against one another in MCO along with Delta and Jetblue, and they compete against one another in TPA along with Delta and US Airways. So again, what are you and your buddy trying to say that has meaning here, nothing. Southwest will probable enter in the Atlanta market next year, ok. If they do, Southwest will be adding to their nationwide network. So lets get some perspective here. Southwest entering into the Atlanta market will hurt both Delta and AirTran, will it be the demise of AirTran? Probable not.

 

[MJ42]

Actually it is SWA, AAI, and Delta in Orlando and it looks like Delta is reducing their flying.

Guess that makes Delta smart, not too many families going to these vacation destinations with a bad economy, huh?

 

[Eagle757shark]

Guess that makes Delta smart, not too many families going to these vacation destinations with a bad economy, huh?

With the Iceland banks collapsing last week and a global economy in a tale spin, we will see how well Delta's international expansion works out. This business in this economy is going to be rough for all airlines.

 

[qxdash8]

Actually it is SWA, AAI, and Delta in Orlando and it looks like Delta is reducing their flying.

MCO is no ATL. MCO is primarily a leisure destination, ATL is a major hub (for both AAI and DL). I would be suprised if SW is even interested in coming into ATL in the current condtions. Look how long it took for them to announce MSP service - and there is no major LCC even based there.

 

[ACL65PILOT]

Trust me I have seen some numbers and it would be a blood bath.
And yes, LUV may indeed buy AAI, but not if it is healthy. They will want them for a deal.
Right now AAI is fairly healthy.

 

[gt1900]

Get over it guys... LUV ain't buying AAI. And LUV aint goint to come to ATL. There is just way too much competition between AAI and DAL for LUV to be profitable. It would be one thing if AAI and DAL were both legacy carriers with high costs, but AAI has lower costs then LUV. LUV can't simply enter the market and put the hurt to AAI and DAL.. Not without bleeding themselves. And LUV is about making money, not bleeding it. If they could come into ATL and get 20 gates then maybe, but still probably wouldn't happen. Their are a lot of loyal AAI and DAL pax that fly out of ATL. It kinda reminds me of when everyone said LUV was gonna put Alaska out of business in SEA. ALA is doing just fine, and LUV has taken their expansion elsewhere.

DEN is a totally different situation. F9's costs are much higher and they are hurting. AAI should have merged with them 3 years ago. If they had, you wouldn't see LUV doing what they are in DEN.

LUV will expand where they feel they can make money. And ATL isn't one of those places with the current competition... Simple as that... They slowed thier expansion in PHL and took it to DEN. Now they have added a few flights out of MSP.. They may become pretty big out of MSP. If so, that would be another city that AAI failed to grab when it was available.

 

[CatfishVT9]

Glen H. came to my new hire class in March. He was asked if we (DAL) were worried about LUV coming to ATL. His response was that we would much rather have LUV in ATL than Airtran. He stated that SW was much more rational in how they ran their airline then Citrus. Personally I don't see SW in ATL unless Airtran in gone. Trying to compete angaints both DL and AAI in ATL is a whole different ball game compared to UA and F9 in DEN.

Lets see, AAI announces West coast service in 2003. Next day, Delta adds FOUR 767s to those routes.

2008. Delta reduces capacity on all routes EXCEPT AAI routes.

Who's irrational? If I was a Delta pilot, I'd be asking why my management is doing some of the same actions that drove us into bankrupcy.

Glen H. sounds like he gave the identical presentation that Klaus gave to my newhire class in 2004 (he really did use the phrase irrational behavior). Actually, I'd love to get these two guys in a room, point at both and say "he says you're irrational" and then watch as they trade F you's.

Then the ensuing argument...........

Catfish: "My management sucks worse than yours!!"

qxdash: "No, my management sucks worse!"


Cheers:laugh:

 

[Ty Webb]

What Glen was getting at is that AAI has operated irrationally over the years which is why DL doen't like competing with them. These are his words not mine - I don't have any specifics but I thought it was an interesting comment.

That quote has more to it than you are probably aware of . . . Joe Leonard (former AAI CEO) often used that exact same phrase about a pre-bankruptcy Delta.

What he said was that it was difficult to compete against a Company that was losing billions of dollars, didn't seem to care that they were losing billions of dollars, and were not behaving rationally. He also predicted they (Delta) would become bankrupt if it continued. . . . which seemed like a real stretch 5 or 6 years ago . . . but ultimately turned out to be true.

Ty

 

[Ty Webb]

Guess that makes Delta smart, not too many families going to these vacation destinations with a bad economy, huh?

You're kidding, right? DAL started drawing down MCO a year or more ago . . . . . more likely in response to competition from . . . . . SWA and AirTran.

Which, by the way, made AAI the second largest carrier at MCO, and SWA #1.

Ty

 

[michael707767]

Aren't you guys trying to get rid of Glen?

Are you kidding? More than anyone else at Delta, Glen and Bob are the reason we have made a great turnaround from the days of Leo and that idiot Mike Bell.

 

[ACL65PILOT]

Exactly, they are worth their money. If you have not noticed our game plane is changing. We are no longer conceding markets, we are fighting for them. This will continue in full force after the merger is complete.

 

[MJ42]

You're kidding, right? DAL started drawing down MCO a year or more ago . . . . . more likely in response to competition from . . . . . SWA and AirTran.

Which, by the way, made AAI the second largest carrier at MCO, and SWA #1.

Ty

No, I'm not kidding, are you? They cut back a lot of Mesa ERJ flying.

Here's an article(4 months old) for your reference:

http://www.usatoday.com/travel/flights/2008-06-03-airlines-cuts-flights-fares_N.htm

Note 1/2 way down in the part "Vacation spots squeezed". Talks about Delta reducing flights "STARTING THIS MONTH". Delta didn't cut back due to competition, but because there is no money to be made in MCO as well as high fuel prices(in June) and less pax going to vacation spots.

Ty, do you think it could have had something to do with DAL trying to get rid of Mesa and some RJ's? I do! Reference same article: "Communities losing 'RJ' links". It specifically cites MCO.

 

[General Lee]

You're kidding, right? DAL started drawing down MCO a year or more ago . . . . . more likely in response to competition from . . . . . SWA and AirTran.

Which, by the way, made AAI the second largest carrier at MCO, and SWA #1.

Ty

SWA and AAI really didn't go to the same cities Delta did from MCO. Delta was more affected by Jetblue probably. And MJ42 was right, the major reduction in our flying as of late was the drop in RJs, to places like GSO, CAE, EYE, and intra FLA stuff that was not profitable.

Bye Bye--General Lee

 

[dooork]

If they come to ATL it will be after AAI's demise or it will be the demise of AAI. There is no way that two LLC can compete for that market share in and out of ATL.

You mean three LCC. You forgot Delta.

 

[ACL65PILOT]

Yeah, tell that to the people that are paying over 7K for a Business Elite ticket for international travel.

 

[atldc9]

My airline is better than your airline. Another 2 minutes of my life wasted.

 

[dooork]

Yeah, tell that to the people that are paying over 7K for a Business Elite ticket for international travel.

I'm talking about quality. You ain't no Singapore.

 

[ACL65PILOT]

No kidding. We are not much of anything when you compare it to the rest of the world. America's Airlines have horrible first class service.

 

[scrub]

gotta love airline pilots, hoping the other guys fail, grow up!

 

[Ty Webb]

It looked to me like the mainline started drawing down long before that . . . seemed to coincide with (result in?) our terminal change, which was last year . . . I don't do much MCO stuff, more of a west coast guy, so I'm not familiar with the recent RJ changes you are talking about. I thought we were talking about competing with SWA and AAI, not intra-Florida and flights to Pig's Knuckle, AR.

But what do I know? I'm just a Yoke and Throttle Operator . . .

No, I'm not kidding, are you? They cut back a lot of Mesa ERJ flying.

Here's an article(4 months old) for your reference:

http://www.usatoday.com/travel/flights/2008-06-03-airlines-cuts-flights-fares_N.htm

Note 1/2 way down in the part "Vacation spots squeezed". Talks about Delta reducing flights "STARTING THIS MONTH". Delta didn't cut back due to competition, but because there is no money to be made in MCO as well as high fuel prices(in June) and less pax going to vacation spots.

Ty, do you think it could have had something to do with DAL trying to get rid of Mesa and some RJ's? I do! Reference same article: "Communities losing 'RJ' links". It specifically cites MCO.

 

[~~~^~~~]

AirTran would be G O N E if NWA had not paid out $270,000,000.00 plus to bail out MidWest. AirTran did not have the cash to merge, then carry MidWest forward with the dynamics of fuel prices.

Delta is losing money throwing RJ's at 717's. They plan to lose more money throwing 1950's tech DC9's at them. NWA lost $300,000,000.00 trying to keep AirTran out.

Who's "irrational" ?

 

[jester757]

And just wait until DAL/NWA start the nines here in ATL on the routes where RJs run against AAI. From what numbers I have seen - those good old nines are WAY cheaper to run on the routes - even with the high fuel burn because they are paid for. Can you say preditory pricing...(or as LCCs put it - fare sale)??

 

[puddlejumper101]

Something that surprised me is just who SWA's biggest competitor is right now. It's not Airtran, DAL, UAL, F9...its USAirways. 20% overlap on domestic routes, more than with any other carrier. SWA doesn't really compete with AAI or Jetblue at all (miniscule numbers)...there is very little overlap between the three.
SWA folks in DALLAS are not stupid, and they pick their competition well. USAirways is having all kinds of problems, service is aweful (especially in their domestic operation), their numbers are horrid and SWA is taking advantage of it. Next on the list of troubled airlines is UAL. That being said, SWA is on UAL attack also with DEN, SFO, and MDW taking quite a big bite from UAL's domestic operation. I think DAL is rather healthy at the moment and for this reason SWA is staying away from ATL. But that could change quickly. If Gary or Herb can get landing rights into Dobbins (doubt it but I am sure they are working on this), then SWA would be all over ATL. But for now, easier targets in other locations. CLT will happen before ATL does. AAI and SWA don't really compete. AAI has always stayed away from SWA as much as they could...so has Jetblue.

 

[General Lee]

Something that surprised me is just who SWA's biggest competitor is right now. It's not Airtran, DAL, UAL, F9...its USAirways. 20% overlap on domestic routes, more than with any other carrier. SWA doesn't really compete with AAI or Jetblue at all (miniscule numbers)...there is very little overlap between the three.
SWA folks in DALLAS are not stupid, and they pick their competition well. USAirways is having all kinds of problems, service is aweful (especially in their domestic operation), their numbers are horrid and SWA is taking advantage of it. Next on the list of troubled airlines is UAL. That being said, SWA is on UAL attack also with DEN, SFO, and MDW taking quite a big bite from UAL's domestic operation. I think DAL is rather healthy at the moment and for this reason SWA is staying away from ATL. But that could change quickly. If Gary or Herb can get landing rights into Dobbins (doubt it but I am sure they are working on this), then SWA would be all over ATL. But for now, easier targets in other locations. CLT will happen before ATL does. AAI and SWA don't really compete. AAI has always stayed away from SWA as much as they could...so has Jetblue.

Get landing rights into Dobbins? Come on now. More like Macon is Southwest's style (Manchester vs Bos, Islip vs JFK...) Highly doubtful, unless you are high yourself. BTW, we compete with Southwest at SLC, and we do just fine. While they do primarily point to point traffic, we use our hubs for connections.


Bye Bye--General Lee

 

[puddlejumper101]

Get landing rights into Dobbins? Come on now. More like Macon is Southwest's style (Manchester vs Bos, Islip vs JFK...) Highly doubtful, unless you are high yourself. BTW, we compete with Southwest at SLC, and we do just fine. While they do primarily point to point traffic, we use our hubs for connections.


Bye Bye--General Lee

With Millions of people living in Cobb County, trust me Dobbins is one hot piece of Real Estate. Soo much so, the city of Atlanta and Delta Airlines will go to whatever extent possible to make sure it doesn't happen. But this is SWA, the same airline who got rid of the Wright Ammendment, so anything is possible. Dobbins is a money maker waiting to be exploited. SWA and DAL don't really compete in SLC but on like 3 routes (the rest are RJs). Because of you General, DAL is not the weakest legacy. Easier battles at the moment for SWA, but if we end up in ATL, then you better get working General because this means SWA has noticed something that isn't working. Like with USAirways and UAL.

By the way...Islip is not used as a replacement for NYC. Long Island is home to over 2 million people. Enough people in Long Island to support SWA service without counting NYC. Islip is not a NYC replacement, it's an independent market from NYC.

 

[qxdash8]

With Millions of people living in Cobb County, trust me Dobbins is one hot piece of Real Estate. Soo much so, the city of Atlanta and Delta Airlines will go to whatever extent possible to make sure it doesn't happen. But this is SWA, the same airline who got rid of the Wright Ammendment, so anything is possible. Dobbins is a money maker waiting to be exploited. SWA and DAL don't really compete in SLC but on like 3 routes (the rest are RJs). Because of you General, DAL is not the weakest legacy. Easier battles at the moment for SWA, but if we end up in ATL, then you better get working General because this means SWA has noticed something that isn't working. Like with USAirways and UAL.

I wouldn't say that "anything" is possible when it comes to WN. Just ask the folks in Seattle how that BFI operation is working out. The Wright Amendment was a stupid piece of federal legislation - local governments are not so easily swayed when it comes to protecting their own.