AirTran pilots

[DC10]

UALX727,

You'll never make anywhere near those figures promised in the new TA. If this thing goes through, you, me and every other year 4-7 captain will be flying a shiny new EMB-190 that will replace all the 717s, at greatly reduced small jet payrates.

My vote is NO for ANY TA containing small jet pay scales, regardless of whatever else is in there.

 

[Flyingdutchman]

what are the competetive mins these days at tran?

 

[Murphy]

I did the comparison of current book vs proposed TA through 2013 and it was just over 6% more money. 8.7% pay increase and then I deducted 2.5% for the work rule changes. I looked at Jan to May to look at the work rules. You have to apply all the work rule changes at once and you have to take AP's word that core block is a 6 minute loss per leg. You can't just say door loss is this % loss, avg day is this much, core block is this %, and the duty rigs are this % loss and add them all together cumulatively.

Observations:
- Door impacts you if you overblock
- 2-1 duty rig never kicked in. If you work 10-12 hrs, you are going to fly more than the 2-1 rig, at least on the 717.
- 4.5 avg day kicks in on poorly constructed trips but the 3.5:1 trip rig protects you, but you still lose money. This will probably impact the 737 side more with the west coast flying.
- Core block really impacts because then the change in door payment kicks in on the lower block time.

Don't get me started on the reserve rules. Moveable days. Change the days three days prior. Moveable days two days prior to two days after your scheduled days. Ready reserve and follow on assignments after a flight assignment. Not signing up for that ever, not ever.

 

[UALX727]

The actual percentage rate that I came up with is simply looking at where you would be in 4 years at current book vs. where you would be in 4 years with the TA.(For myself, it was 14.45% raise. The NPA said I would see a 24.33% raise which is not accurate).

The 14.45% raise was strictly the hourly increase I would see. I see what you guys are saying, you would now have to adjust this number to reflect all of the givebacks. This would decrease it even more (door close giveback, core credit time stuff, reserve pay givebacks, and even then look at the inflation rate going forward, and take into consideration the COLA raise we never recieved over the last few years).

To be fair to the 12 year plus guys, they would not get the yearly raises the rest of us would get on the current contract going forward, so maybe it isn't as big of a gain for them as I originally thought.

I also agree, we should not cave on the scope. Why do we need to give that up??? At this point I truly believe that our current contract is actually a better deal than the TA. Currently we keep the scope stuff, keep the door time, keep the reserve system, no doctors notes, no 3 times not recommmended for checkride BS, and a bunch of other stuff.

I am voting no. I haven't heard anything else to convince me otherwise. I haven't gone to a road show and I see no point to it. The cave on the scope and the reserve rules make it an automatic no.

 

[Lear70]

That's great work, guys. I'm just happy people are really analyzing this stuff rather than just buying off on what I say or what the roadshows are saying...

Spread the word!

DC10, I'm right there with you, as I believe that's EXACTLY what management has planned, starting with the Embraer orders in 12-18 months then the phase-out of the 717's beginning in the next 2-3 years.

 

[UALX727]

Here is another scenario that could be played out a year or two from now with those new small jet pay scales:

Company to Union: "Guys, we want to replace all of the 717 flying with the E-190. We can operate that airplane at an even cheaper CASM than we can on the 717."

Union to Company: "No, we don't want that. All of our 717 guys will be bumped over to the lower paying E-190 payscales."

Now company can play let's make a deal.......

Companies response: "Well, let's see here. We would consider not buying the E-190's if we could just get our CASM down on the 717 to near where it is on the E-190. Hmmmm...... If we could figure out new 717 payscales to bring our CASM down to the E-190 CASM, we may consider keeping the 717's ."

Now the union is forced to either reduce the payrates on the 717 to keep them on the property or face replacement with the E-190's and the much lower payscale.

These lower payscales help the company in two ways. First, it puts the union in a bind to be whipsawed by the threat of the E-190 and it's horrible rates. Secondly, it gives the company leverage to get a much better deal on the 717's from Boeing if Boeing believes that we truly want the E-190.

And all along the company really just wants to keep the 717's, and is using the E-190 as a tool to negotiate concessions from the pilot group and Boeing.

 

[twepilot]

anyone know facts about when the leases are up on the 71's??

RV

 

[CitationLover]

anyone know facts about when the leases are up on the 71's??

RV

the 25 MEH one's are 20 yr leases with the first expiring in 2023.

from the air tran annual report

We lease 79 B717 aircraft through various lessors, under leases with terms that expire through 2022. We have the option to renew the B717 leases for periods ranging from one to four years. The B717 leases have purchase options at or near the end of the lease term at fair market value, and two have purchase options based on a stated percentage of the lessor’s defined cost of the aircraft at the end of the thirteenth year of the lease term. Each of the leases contains return conditions that must be met prior to the termination of the leases. Forty-one of the B717 leases are the result of sale/leaseback transactions. Deferred gains from these transactions are being amortized over the terms of the leases. At December 31, 2006 and 2005, unamortized deferred gains were $59.7 million and $62.4 million, respectively. We also lease facilities from local airport authorities or other carriers, as well as office space under operating leases with terms ranging up to 12 years. In addition, we lease spare engines and certain rotables under capital leases.

 

[UALX727]

Good point on the leases. I imagine there has to be some loophole or clause that would let them dump the 717's early, maybe with a penalty of some sort. But in general, everything is negotiable if the price is right. I am sure they could work something out with Boeing on the 717's in exchange for more 737 orders.

My main point is that we don't want those small jet pay rates in the TA at all. This just gives the company leverage in the future against the NPA.

Or another scenario, which I saw used at a regional that I once worked for, is to use the "carrot jet" scenario. Basically, the company tells the union that they are going to get E-190's (in our case). They say that AirTran pilots can fly them or they can contract it out to (insert name of regional airline). However, (regional airline X) will fly them for rates below ours. So if the AirTran pilots want to keep the flying, we need to lower our small jet payscale even further.

The union doesn't want to see the flying get outsourced, so eventually they cave and AirTran pilots get the flying at an even further reduced pay than what the TA shows now.

 

[CitationLover]

Good point on the leases. I imagine there has to be some loophole or clause that would let them dump the 717's early, maybe with a penalty of some sort. But in general, everything is negotiable if the price is right. I am sure they could work something out with Boeing on the 717's in exchange for more 737 orders.

I doubt boeing would allow them to simply dump them for Embraer. Even a few more 737's isn't going to help.

Don't know why everyone has a hardon for the 190, it has what seems a very low dispatch rate. jetBlue and USAirways are not happy with Embraer right now.

My main point is that we don't want those small jet pay rates in the TA at all. This just gives the company leverage in the future against the NPA.

Or another scenario, which I saw used at a regional that I once worked for, is to use the "carrot jet" scenario. Basically, the company tells the union that they are going to get E-190's (in our case). They say that AirTran pilots can fly them or they can contract it out to (insert name of regional airline). However, (regional airline X) will fly them for rates below ours. So if the AirTran pilots want to keep the flying, we need to lower our small jet payscale even further.

The union doesn't want to see the flying get outsourced, so eventually they cave and AirTran pilots get the flying at an even further reduced pay than what the TA shows now.

I doubt it. It appears 70 seats has been the breaking point with mainline. If management keeps posting profits then what economic sad story can they muster? With the Embraer 190 with 717 pay rates it still saves them labor costs as there is one less FA. Republic only pays a little less than US Airways in terms of CA pay (a lot less on FO), so I cannot see too much in savings for going to a regional operation. Stand your ground, you already have small narrowbody pay established in the 717 rates.

All the more reason for no relaxing of the current scope (in fact tightening it).

MEH offer extended to August 10th.