Airtran pilot staffing

[PCL_128]

He feels that scope isn't important? Did he put that in writing anywhere, or did you just hear it somewhere? Scope is my number one priority. I will be very concerned if a member of the BOD thinks it's "unimportant."

 

[Lear70]

I think it came up right before you got here. Vaguely remember something about it, but can't remember where I read it... I think it was phrased something along the lines of he didn't think the company really had anything in mind and didn't see the issue with Scope as he didn't believe the company would go to all that trouble having already "experimented" with 50-seaters.

Might have been one of the other guys like Rico or something, I just don't remember that clearly.

Why don't you ask him, since it's one of the company's top priorities and he's in such a "talkative" mood on the other board. I'm sure he'll tell you, and it'll be out there for everyone.

 

[RIDETHELIGHTING]

He feels that scope isn't important? Did he put that in writing anywhere, or did you just hear it somewhere? Scope is my number one priority. I will be very concerned if a member of the BOD thinks it's "unimportant."

Trust me ask him he feels very strong about it.

 

[maxblast72]

It's more than that, though. The 5% reduction is compared to last year's block hours. The reduction from this July to September will be 20% of our total block hours. That's a big cut. Does it justify furloughs? I doubt it, but they didn't ask me.

Last year, we did about a 15% ASM reduction on the 717 after Labor day going from around 29,000 block hours in August 2007 to mid 24,000 block in September 2007.

True this years cut for September and October might be a little deeper (20%), but are we really going to cut the block hours that much from Mid-November to New Years holiday season?

The question will be how many airplanes do we end up with for the rest of 2008 and 2009. Fornaro said at the Merryll Lynch presentation that we have 143 airplanes today with 2 about to be sold. The slide presentation then listed the fleet for 2009 at 135-140 aircraft. If we drop to 135 aircraft, we are probably a little overstaffed. If we stay at 140, we are probably a little overstaffed for Sept, Oct, Jan, and Feb and pretty close to proper staffing for the busier times of the year.

How many guys do you think would be OK with lower average line values (tied to a more days off/better efficiency) for the slow times during the year to possibly prevent furloughs if we are overstaffed? That would show some unity in this pilot group by having the senior guys look out for the junior guys for once.

 

[JT12345]

I figured out about 140 pilots furloughed if we have 130 airplanes and a 8 hour reduction in line value to bring 140 pilots to 70 hours.

I would gander that 135 airplanes would mean about half that or 70 pilots furloughed with a 5 hour reduction in line value for line holders to carry 70 pilots at 70 hours.

Its really 7 hours and 4 hours respectively, but I added an hour to account for benefits of the furloughed pilots. I don't really know how that would be covered realistically. Figured $1000 per month per pilot for benefit costs.

I know we are alittle fat, but our staffing is still a pilot per airplane less than average.

 

[carl p]

It doesn't feel like we're fat when I keep getting nailed on the last day of a 4 day line on reserve to fly an extra round trip that happens to finish at 12 hrs duty on the dot. The last 3 times they have pulled this.

 

[islandhoper]

How' bout charters?

In the letter, the NPA mentioned a LOA for charter operations. Anyone knows what this is all about?
I remember a long time ago, the company mentioned looking at the Miami air structure and how they move crews and planes to Europe during slow season.

Wish-full thinking perhaps...

 

[relief tube]

Hate it when I start sounding like devils advocate.

Those that signed onto Airtran knew full well they were getting on with a fledgling carrier that was the only airline out there growing 20% a year while the next biggest grower was at 8%.....and even southwest was only at 6%. Face the consequences instead of a concessionary shot in the foot for even lower wages. Know thats easier than its easier said than done.

 

[27 driver]

Hate it when I start sounding like devils advocate.

Those that signed onto Airtran knew full well they were getting on with a fledgling carrier that was the only airline out there growing 20% a year while the next biggest grower was at 8%.....and even southwest was only at 6%. Face the consequences instead of a concessionary shot in the foot for even lower wages. Know thats easier than its easier said than done.

Your post is flawed my friend. I am a newbie here and we have seen unprecedented economic changes in a very short time. Airtran was not fledgling 6 months ago for one. Oil was in the $80 dollar a barrel range and we were profitable. Nobody could have known that oil would have almost doubled in just a 2 month range. Airtran negotiated killer rates on the new 73's. Things change fast in this business I guess. It sure is a lot easier to tell people to not take concessions when you are outside looking in. There are many affected that might lose their house, struggle to feed their family, etc. I am one of those. Most of my savings have been consumed by my last furlough just a short year and a half ago. I am hoping for the best, but it doesn't look good right now.

 

[PCL_128]

Hate it when I start sounding like devils advocate.

Those that signed onto Airtran knew full well they were getting on with a fledgling carrier that was the only airline out there growing 20% a year while the next biggest grower was at 8%.....and even southwest was only at 6%. Face the consequences instead of a concessionary shot in the foot for even lower wages. Know thats easier than its easier said than done.

What a load of crap. Fledgling carrier? Virgin America is a "fledgling carrier." AirTran is a well established major airline with $2.5 billion in annual revenue and many years of profitability.

 

[TV9Driver]

I know this is a difficult time for everyone and I can appreciate and understand both sides of the concession argument.

I am a 3+ year f/o making 4th year f/o pay and I can tell you right now that I cannot make ends meet if we go to 70 hour lines. If they do decide to do that, I had better get 18-20 days off so that I can find a part time job. I won't be able to afford to keep this job if it's 70 hrs and 13-14 days off.

My other point is this... Taking any kind of concession would be such a tiny tiny drop in the bucket right now, why should we? We (fo) are so horribly underpaid as it is, why should we be punished more when we know that it won't really help the company's financial situation anyway?

It's like putting down 1 sandbag in front of your house when the flood waters are coming. How does that help at all?

 

[PCL_128]

A 70 hour line is not a concession. Before the company furloughs a single pilot, every line should be scaled back to 70 hours.

 

[27 driver]

PCL, I agree that 70 hour lines is not a concession, it is simply the monthly guarentee. People will simply have to vote their consciencous when the time comes. I guess people have gotten used to 90 hour months though.

 

[rhino3040]

A 70 hour line is not a concession. Before the company furloughs a single pilot, every line should be scaled back to 70 hours.

Amen Bro! My family and I would agree on this one. I hope the union and management can see the faces of my family once they agree on the furlough if that is what it comes down to.

 

[TV9Driver]

I totally agree. I didn't mean to imply that we furlough instead of taking 70 hr lines. I just want to make sure they build efficient lines - not like last fall when I had a 73 hr line and 13 days off. Like I said, I'll need another job if we do this, so i'm going to need as much time off as possible.

I usually average about 85 hrs a month, so this would be the equivelant of a $12K pay cut over the course of a year....

 

[JT12345]

I am a 3+ year f/o making 4th year f/o pay and I can tell you right now that I cannot make ends meet if we go to 70 hour lines. If they do decide to do that, I had better get 18-20 days off so that I can find a part time job. I won't be able to afford to keep this job if it's 70 hrs and 13-14 days off.

I use to think like that about leaving my last job for here. Combined with wanting to spend more time with the family while my kids were still young I didn't think I could make ends meet.

Well I have noticed that I took a 30% pay cut, did major repairs on the cars and stuff around the house, and I have more money in the bank than I ever have. You would be surprised how much money you can save if you really look at what you spend on a daily basis. What you can live without might surprise yourself.

As for concessions I would rather be on the street than comeback here for less pay. It wouldn't be much of a difference then, so what would be the point of concessions. Concessions would be a joke. I would rather collect unemployment. Hey they might extend benefits too!

One thing about fuel prices is it puts the 40% paycuts by others in perspective. The fuel prices have made the 40% paycuts by others seem
infinitesimal compared to the costs the airlines face now. It kinda proves that the airlines would have done just fine without 40% concessions, and shows what it took to kill the industry.

However, as a junior pilot I would be humbled by the brotherhood here if a line reduction of 5-8 hours was taken by the group, so I could stay off the street.

 

[jester757]

Cutting the ALV will happen and should happen to keep guys off of the street. Anyone who says otherwise has never been furloughed.

How are you going to look at that 61 year old next to you when you get your notice of furlough?? Nice going ALPA on that one BTW.

 

[QCappy]

We are taking delivery of roughly 70 -800s over the next 2 years. I wasn't sure if those would be readily available or if some carriers were canceling their -800 orders/ options.

AAflyer

Slots are slots. It doesn't matter if they are -700s, -800s, or -900ERs. If a slot becomes available it can be whatever the customer who gets the slot wants. If you look at the line in Renton there are -700s, -800s and -900ERs in line together.

 

[TV9Driver]

JT,

While I appreciate what you are saying, unfortunately I am being literal when I say that I can't afford the job at 70 hrs/month. I've been furloughed from my first major airline job for 6 years now and even as a 4th year f/o at AAI, I'm still making 50% less than I was back in 2002. I've had to burn through all my savings and have gone into debt just to make ends meet the last 6 years.

I'm not trying to give the sob story to garner sympathy. I am just saying I have nothing left to give to the airlines. At some point, I need to start making more money than I owe!

I agree with you, i'd rather be on the street than give any concessions..

 

[RadioClash]

I will not entertain concessions at AirTran. I would rather go teach high school than give up pay, we as pilots do too much to try and save the company money. I am not asking for the world but concessions are not the answer.

 

[sleepy]

Why are tickets on Airtran more expensive than tickets on DAL? I wanted to fly on AirTran, but I am not going to pay more to do it. I don't get it?

 

[Choppy]

JT,

While I appreciate what you are saying, unfortunately I am being literal when I say that I can't afford the job at 70 hrs/month. I've been furloughed from my first major airline job for 6 years now and even as a 4th year f/o at AAI, I'm still making 50% less than I was back in 2002. I've had to burn through all my savings and have gone into debt just to make ends meet the last 6 years.

I'm not trying to give the sob story to garner sympathy. I am just saying I have nothing left to give to the airlines. At some point, I need to start making more money than I owe!

I agree with you, i'd rather be on the street than give any concessions..

Not to bust your balls but this is a classic example of what not to do when you are a newhire. Don't assume that the money is always going to go up just because you see the pay rates posted in front of you for the next 15 years. Too many newhires do this and end up where you are!

 

[Uppercrust]

At FedEx it might come down to a 58 hourly gurantee so no one gets forloughed. You guys might want to consider this option.

 

[zman]

I know this is a difficult time for everyone and I can appreciate and understand both sides of the concession argument.

I am a 3+ year f/o making 4th year f/o pay and I can tell you right now that I cannot make ends meet if we go to 70 hour lines. If they do decide to do that, I had better get 18-20 days off so that I can find a part time job. I won't be able to afford to keep this job if it's 70 hrs and 13-14 days off.

My other point is this... Taking any kind of concession would be such a tiny tiny drop in the bucket right now, why should we? We (fo) are so horribly underpaid as it is, why should we be punished more when we know that it won't really help the company's financial situation anyway?

It's like putting down 1 sandbag in front of your house when the flood waters are coming. How does that help at all?

Then maybe you should'nt be living above your means buddy. If you cant live off a 70 hr gurantee at 66 in hour something is wrong with you, not the company. Also min gurantee lines arent concessions, god its amazing how stupid some people truely are!!!

 

[airline#5]

FO pay raises only...NO F'ing WAY TO CONSESSIONS!!!

 

[tubelcane]

z man,

How do you know what his means are? Maybe his wife can't work. Maybe he's had a few rugrats in the past 5 to 6 years. Maybe you should let the brother vent. Im not in as dire straits as him, but as someone about to go on year 4 fo pay at the Tranny Im not too thrilled about what may happen here either. Some of us are tired of being ******************** on by management that continue to take huge bonuses and drive cars that cost more than my house. And then being told we are losing this and that because of gas prices. Should we lower the guarentee to keep guys off the street, absolutely. Should we consider paycuts F*&^ NOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO! Has Fornaro and company given they're bonus back from Jan. I doubt it. Have they announced they would not take a salary for the rest of the year, negative on that one too. Some of us have given alot for this career. We all make choices I know, but some were made for us!

 

[27 driver]

At FedEx it might come down to a 58 hourly gurantee so no one gets forloughed. You guys might want to consider this option.

At Fedex you are paid a much greater hourly rate.

 

[Uppercrust]

At Fedex you are paid a much greater hourly rate.

It doesn't matter. Think about the folks who started this company... What would they do? Where do you think the original Airtran pilots came from. You guys will do the right thing.

 

[ASADFW7]

Then maybe you should'nt be living above your means buddy. If you cant live off a 70 hr gurantee at 66 in hour something is wrong with you, not the company. Also min gurantee lines arent concessions, god its amazing how stupid some people truely are!!!

I have to say this is an blanket statement of ignorance. I am not protecting the practise of spending more than you make. Life is a little more complicated than living in your parents basement forever as well. I have lived in ATL and it is an expensive area. Even if you live in Newnan and drive to work with two kids, and a wife. There isn't much left over.

 

[flying zephyr]

I admire the guys at FedEx if they do that. Yes, they make more an hour but it shows true unity to sacrifice income. I am a firm believer in living within your means, but how many of us can say it wouldn't hurt a little to lose 12 or more hours of pay to keep your fellow brothers and sisters on the job. Gives new meaning to fly safe and stay unified there are several carriers inc mine that could probably learn from this