AirTran/Npa TA update

[Ty Webb]

A real, national UNION is truly in order. Not some weak-ass "association" that doesn't even dare call itself a "union".

The Teamsters might be a better fit than ALPA. Seems like they need an invitation to this party.

Meanwhile, Allen P. "Jimmy Carter" is so worried about a merger with little bitty MEH that he's willing to turn this place into MESA. . . . .

Time to step down, Jimmy . . . .err, Allen. The tribe has spoken.


.

 

[Kharma Police]

A real, national UNION is truly in order. Not some weak-ass "association" that doesn't even dare call itself a "union".

The Teamsters might be a better fit than ALPA. Seems like they need an invitation to this party.

Meanwhile, Allen P. "Jimmy Carter" is so worried about a merger with little bitty MEH that he's willing to turn this place into MESA. . . . .

Time to step down, Jimmy . . . .err, Allen. The tribe has spoken.


.

We need a union president like G.W. Bush!!!!! Someone with brains and charisma who's willing to fight!!!!!

 

[Lear70]

Just an observation or two:

Trying to change a union when you're in the middle of a contract fight (especially towards the end), doesn't sound like the best plan. Not that I'm against it *eventually*, but right now just doesn't seem like the best idea...

Second, trying to bring a union on property that also represents the company we're trying to merge with that has a VAST MAJORITY of pilots who are senior to ours also doesn't sound like the most rational plan of attack to preserve jobs/positions.

Maybe one thing at a time? Just a thought...

 

[na4life]

We need a union president like G.W. Bush!!!!! Someone with brains and charisma who's willing to fight!!!!!

You do realize that Bush Sr, Jr, and Regan have set labor back nearly 40 years. They are the enemy of labor friends of management, and you are labor, therefore they are not on your side in this fight. And I hope the brains part was a bit of irony.

 

[Kharma Police]

You do realize that Bush Sr, Jr, and Regan have set labor back nearly 40 years. They are the enemy of labor friends of management, and you are labor, therefore they are not on your side in this fight. And I hope the brains part was a bit of irony.

Not irony, sarcasm.

 

[na4life]

touche

 

[PCL_128]

ALPA???? Are you freaking on crack??? Remember what Randy Babbit said re: LCC's a few years ago. ALPA is not the friend of a LCC.

RV

Randy Babbit is a twit, and in no way represents the Air Line Pilots Association. He's a freelance consultant that does more work for airline management now than he does for labor. Whatever he said about LCCs a few years ago has nothing to do with ALPA. Randy hasn't been in office for almost a decade now.

As much as I would love to see ALPA here at AirTran, I have to agree with Lear that it's best to wait until we at least get this current mess sorted out. If the TA is brought to a vote in 30 days and voted down, we'll probably be parked by the mediator, and then there will be time to think about ALPA. Until then, it's just too much to take on.

 

[Sunking]

don't have to...u should get emails and attend the conference call (not always convenient)....?

call the office and get signed up.. .weekly updates and President 'quips' are posted pretty frequently ...not much info...but not sure they can really say much legally?..

No excuse. </SPAN>We lost our comm. staff person this week and it has been hard to coordinate communications. </SPAN>We have hired a replacement but he does not start until next week. </SPAN>The update should be posted early today.

 

[DonVerita]

No excuse. </SPAN>We lost our comm. staff person this week and it has been hard to coordinate communications. </SPAN>We have hired a replacement but he does not start until next week. </SPAN>The update should be posted early today.

Guess where our union office Communications Coordinator went?

To ALPA.

That's right, she knows a better deal when she sees one...and so should we.

 

[gt1900]

Ty.. Be carefull about wanting the teamsters on property.. You will be hard pressed to find an airline that is really happy with the teamsters... Id love the teamsters, if I were a truck driver. But trust me, we don't want them at AAI............. BTW.. IMO, the company continues to make our union look stupid. AP pulled the TA to save his job. What he should have done was let it go to vote, have it turned down by 80% + and then went back to the mediator. At least that way, our union would have some ground to stand on. As it sits now, voting will be 2 months later and it will basically be the same friggen POS contract. Hell, We would have already voted the TA down by now, and they could have been negotiating with the company truely knowing where the pilot group stood, if AP woulddn't have tried to push the POS TA so hard. Our union keeps digging themselves deeper and deeper. AAI managment is making them look like idiots, and now our union doesn't even have any ground to stand on with the mediator..

 

[Newjetjockey]

What airlines have Teamsters? The only one I know of is Netjets. They just got a new contract with some pretty nice payrates. They had to fight pretty hard for them but it seems to have paid off.

I just don't see ALPA having out best interests at heart. It would benefit them to get rid of us all together.

Here are the Netjet payrates off airlinepilotcentral.com. Pretty good for flying a corporate jet.

 

[PCL_128]

What airlines have Teamsters?

Great Lakes (6 years with no new contract), Republic/Chatauqua/Shuttle (not happy with IBT at all), Gulfstream, and my personal favorite, GoJet. Yes, that's right, the scumbags at the IBT actually agreed to represent the pseudo-SCABs at GoJet. The IBT also stiffed the AFL-CIO million of dollars in dues when they broke away a few years ago. Yeah, really the kind of people that I would trust to represent me.

I just don't see ALPA having out best interests at heart. It would benefit them to get rid of us all together.

Not at all. ALPA doesn't get involved in the competition between companies. That's up to management to worry about. I know several members of the DAL MEC, and none of them have anything against AirTran at all.

 

[gt1900]

Don't forget Horizon, about the only one that is somewhat happy with the teamsters.... But during thier last negotiations there was talk they were gonna boot the teamsters as well..... NO TEAMSTERS..

 

[scrub]

You do realize that Bush Sr, Jr, and Regan have set labor back nearly 40 years. They are the enemy of labor friends of management, and you are labor, therefore they are not on your side in this fight. And I hope the brains part was a bit of irony.

Correct me if I'm wrong, but didn't the ever popular President Clinton prevent the pilots at American from striking?

 

[BR715]

Since the mediator said our list of demands was to complex for him or the company, I have come up with my personal list of things for next Thursday.

1. Give us back the door close.
2. Go back to the the 4 hour min day/get rid of 4.5 average. And no core time
3. Go back to 12 hour duty
4. No floating reserve days.
5. Use old scope sysytem.

What else did I forget?

 

[DonVerita]

Since the mediator said our list of demands was to complex for him or the company, I have come up with my personal list of things for next Thursday.

1. Give us back the door close.
2. Go back to the the 4 hour min day/get rid of 4.5 average. And no core time
3. Go back to 12 hour duty
4. No floating reserve days.
5. Use old scope sysytem.

What else did I forget?

All that does is put us back at our sub-par contract base. We've been in negotiations all these years to have a PROGRESSIVE forward thinking contract that is on the level of where a MAJOR airline pilot should be in terms of pay and work rules...not treading water at the National or Regional level.

Don't sell yourselves short brothers. We deserve A LOT more than what we have in our current contract. WE are the ones who make this airline work despite all of management's screwups and failures. WE get the job done. WE deserve the respect and recognition for it. WE are the asset and backbone of this corporation. Management is the liability, yet they have no qualms with paying themselves obscene salaries and even more ridiculous bonuses, but when it comes time to bring you up into the middle of the pack of the major airline industry, then it's all doom and gloom.

You all know where to tell them to go...

 

[SkiFishFly]

Since the mediator said our list of demands was to complex for him or the company, I have come up with my personal list of things for next Thursday.

1. Give us back the door close.
2. Go back to the the 4 hour min day/get rid of 4.5 average. And no core time
3. Go back to 12 hour duty
4. No floating reserve days.
5. Use old scope sysytem.

What else did I forget?

6. Medical (new TA is a concession)
7. Hotels (new TA is no real improvement and has a "grandfather" clause.)

 

[gt1900]

8. Increase the TA'd FO pay by $5 hr.

9. Make the capt pay top out at 12 years, not 15.. Knock the bottom 4 years off Capt. scale so the $183 hr is the top pay at year 12 instead of the pathetic $167hr they wanna give us now at year 12.

 

[-9Capt]

Since the mediator said our list of demands was to complex for him or the company, I have come up with my personal list of things for next Thursday.

1. Give us back the door close.
2. Go back to the the 4 hour min day/get rid of 4.5 average. And no core time
3. Go back to 12 hour duty
4. No floating reserve days.
5. Use old scope sysytem.

What else did I forget?

All of which amounts to a contract extension with no real improvements over current book. Don't fall for managements tricks. They wanted an extension 2.5 years ago, we said no, and they took it anyway.

Don't be surprised if this was their plan from the beginning. Offer us $h!t in hopes we agree to keep our current contract.

How about we hold out for some real improvements.

 

[-9Capt]

8. Increase the TA'd FO pay by $5 hr.

9. Make the capt pay top out at 12 years, not 15.. Knock the bottom 4 years off Capt. scale so the $183 hr is the top pay at year 12 instead of the pathetic $167hr they wanna give us now at year 12.

Sounds good to me. $5/hr over the TA rates to the FO's seems a little light though.

 

[gt1900]

Ya it is... But I will give them a little bit of wiggle room here, but not much, only because upgrade is still running around 3 years... I know, I know, don't bash me. Since I'm one of the guys who is sick and tired of the fast upgrade excuse and now Im using it myself... But, I think that would make most FO's happy. It would still put us a little light on FO pay but the capt. pay would be decent (not great).... I think that most of the guys would be happy at that payscale.. Its not perfect, but I really think it would make the pilots happy and the company could manage.. Especially with the record earnings right around the corner...

 

[freightdogfred]

What airlines have Teamsters? The only one I know of is Netjets. They just got a new contract with some pretty nice payrates. They had to fight pretty hard for them but it seems to have paid off.

I just don't see ALPA having out best interests at heart. It would benefit them to get rid of us all together.

Here are the Netjet payrates off airlinepilotcentral.com. Pretty good for flying a corporate jet.

Take a look at the contract for ABX, another teamster airline. It's about the highest payscale out there.

http://airlinepilotcentral.com/airlines/cargo/abx_air.html

 

[Lear70]

Take a look at the contract for ABX, another teamster airline. It's about the highest payscale out there.

Not to mention that it's old and they've been in negotiations for 3+ years as well, and are expecting a T.A. any day now...

Hard to compare freight salaries to ours. Their profit margin is obscenely higher. Not that I don't *want* those rates, they'd be great. It's almost double all our existing rates...

Don't forget: Netjets sold out their new-hires having home basing in exchange for some of those pay increases. They never thought the company would keep the new system long-term... they were wrong.

There is no one-size-fits-all-perfect-solution union. A union is what its members and leaders make it. They all fight together, or die alone.

 

[Just thinking]

Spoke with a gentlemen who was chatting with on of the nc members that first provided this sickening proposal to this pilot group. After the overwhelming disgust in the TA and the ridiculous attempt to ''smooth'' the rough edges in DC on the 10th-13th with the company and the mediatir. He still believes that this is the best that we are going to get because our pilot group is not pissed off enough. That was the advice of the attorney. He also believes that the company will impose their own contract... give the 737s to midwestto operate under their own certificate... so on and so forth. Ultimately thiis is just a fine demonstration of their complete and utter stupidity. I plan on making a long career here at AirTran and I peronally promise that if either of these two individuals is ever proposed for a NC position I will start an immediate recall petition before they can cause the damage that they have done. Did the mediator approach the union or did the union approach the mediator with the request on the 10th? From the president's update is seemed that it was at the request of the mediator. Just more double talk and rhetoric that is nothing more than a LIE. Please get the word out that the union does not know what they are doing in regards to this TA. Please vote NO... company may have gotten their two year extension but it is now time to hire the professionals. Look at what American is proposing now that they fired their union leadership. Gag rules do nothing but hide the truth and I do not trust or believe anything that comes out of the NPA's collective mouth....(not including Lear). I am sorry that we have such worthless stooges.... this pilot group deserves so much more from the NPA and from the company. I am not going anywhere and I am looking forward to fixing this place. When we get new leadership voted in I will be the first in line to sign up as a P2P.

 

[Citrusflyer]

He still believes that this is the best that we are going to get because our pilot group is not pissed off enough. That was the advice of the attorney. He also believes that the company will impose their own contract... give the 737s to midwestto operate under their own certificate... so on and so forth.

There have been multiple posts about the anger of the pilot group.

There have been multiple posts about the "complications" of a long term whipsaw via Midwest.

There have been multiple posts about the imposition of a company contract.

The are good legal arguments against both the whipsaw and contract imposition being legal but with tremendous consequences. The whipsaw can only last a couple of years under the old contract via many legal precedents. A contract imposition comes only after self help and a possible strike, sort of quid pro quo.

But, if the company thinks the union will fold, on any issue, then they think they can impose anything they wish. Unfortunately, there has not been anything from the NPA's side that gives me any doubt that the company is the puppeteer in our little world.

So sad.....

 

[j41driver]

You never know what the future holds. I'm not voting for anything that is light on FO pay. Might be stuck in this seat a lot longer than any of us originally planned...not to mention SOMEONE IS ALWAYS GOING TO BE AN FO!

 

[SkiFishFly]

I will vote no if there is even the slightest concession!

 

[SkiFishFly]

I saw a table in the local paper from about a week ago with DOT stats for on time performance for May. Airtran was number one! We had a fewer percentage of flights delayed than any other airline!

What was that BS excuse about why the company wanted to switch from door close to wheels rolling? Wasn't it something about improving ontime performance?

Leadership training course:
How do you improve or maintain a stellar ontime performance?
a. You could publicly thank the pilots (and others) who worked so hard to get you that performance. Tell them what a great job they are doing and to "keep up the good work"
b. You could take some money out of the pockets of all your pilots and FAs by changing the rule of when you start paying them. Tell them taking away an average of 3-4 minutes of pay for every leg will really encourage them to get those wheels rolling on time.

Which would you choose...

 

[Flydaplane]

Correct me if I'm wrong, but didn't the ever popular President Clinton prevent the pilots at American from striking?

Not sure about AMR but I' m pretty sure he was going to block NWA as well.

 

[na4life]

Not sure about AMR but I' m pretty sure he was going to block NWA as well.

Both AMR and NWA pilots had higher paychecks under Clinton than they do under Bush. Just imagine if gas prices had fallen as much as those of the major airline pilots, or vise versa payrates rising at the same rate as gas. We would all be driving Hummers and living in mansions. I sure hope that AirTran is able to make some good out of this situation. It is not an easy position they are in.