AirTran New Mins.

[Gulfstream 200]

400a,

A "complex" or "superiority" thing for me???
I dont think so...

My 135 comments will always be just an opinion. That 135 work sucks, and operators who tell you they need to do 135 to keep the plane running are short timers, my advice to anyone there is look, and look hard, for a job because yours will be gone sometime in the future.

Check your position.."CHIEF PILOT" of a three person outfit!! running a **CENSORED****CENSORED****CENSORED****CENSORED** Beechjet. How did ya get that title?
Im guessing you made it all up yourself..
Are the other 2 "Director of Maint" and "Director of Ops" or do you wear all three hats?

Some of us have such big vacant egos to fill we need those "Chief Pilot" titles huh?

 

[Ty Webb]

Falconfondler:

You are living proof that having a bigger airplane or a "better" job does not guarantee that one will be happy. You are obviously a very unhappy person , a nasty, bitter little man.

Have a nice life, somewhere else.

 

[b757driver]

Maybe no one should question airline HR policy but then the applications should not have the golden words "we are an Equal Opportunity Employer" embossed on the final page of every application or on their web-sites. Clearly, some people are more equal than others! If you are one of those trying to defend this policy then answer that one, using the same logic! Don't just talk the talk - walk the walk also.

It is clear that a policy like this IS discriminatory & those airlines that do it, do themselves a great disservice. If diversity & well-roundedness are key traits that airlines desire, this is no way to go forward. If you simply want to change the goal posts in order to make it harder for the pilot candidate, fine, there are plenty of creative ways of doing that. No useful purpose is served by dismissing one group entirely and then making out you are still an EOE!! Duh? And, as one previous poster mentions, I can almost hear the uproar if the "or military time" were also omitted (and before you all hose me on that one, I am ex-military but I don't think I'm special because of it!)

What about the candidate who has stacks of jet SIC time - hypothetically even on a B717 - and through NO fault of his/her own has been furloughed or laid off from several carriers - and NEVER made it to 121 PIC? Does that make that type of candidate any less of a "worthy" candidate? Attitude, resilience and tenacity, especially under adverse conditions, are far better indicators of future success than any 121 PIC time. I've seen plenty of guys with high PIC time lose their situational awareness and then try to blame their FO for ending up hot and high on the approach because their egos had been bruised. Yes, I am generalizing here, but you get my point, hopefully.

Besides, is ANY airline going to hire direct into the LHS? I don't think so, not even SWA. Also, the last time I looked in a FOTM, it said that
all First Officers are considered Captains- in-Training . My point, if you are going to get specific why not include that to include SIC time as well. There have been many well-documented cases where a PIC's ass has been saved (or not - KLM Tenerife) because he had a competent, SAFE & great attitude FO sitting next to him using his CRM etc. But, according to Air Tran, none of that counts any more. That is mean-spirited, very insulting to those otherwise qualified candidates and extremely short-sighted. They can do it because it is not illegal, but that does not make it right.

And finally, guess what? In most other countries (& I'm not talking about third world here) they don't even care that much for PIC turbine, just overall time on type and/or category. They don't have all this 121, 135, 91, military elitist stuff. Who cares what your background is, if you can fly the plane safely? I have seen plenty of "crusty" 121 PICs and to a lesser extent, some military pilots with very poor airmanship, attitude and man-mangement skills. I'm not trying to knock any single aviator category here. what I'm trying to say is that there is good apples and bad ones in EVERY industry, job whetever. No single group is better or worse than another. To insinuate that it is (by Air Tran's "new" requirements) is to perpetuate the myth that one group IS better than another and more likely to succeed. Excuse me, but what utter B@#$%^&p as Dr. Phil would say! Yes, any airline, or company for that matter, wants the best but how do you define best?

flx757 speaks volumes in his posts and this is from an experienced Air Tran Captain and Check Airman. With his credentials you would think he would know a thing or two about training, suitability and fairness. And I agree wholeheartedly with him. It takes a man of courage to stand up to the plate and say it is wrong - especially about your own company - and I, for one, applaud you for that. It's a pity there are not more like you who tell it like it is.

And no, I have not applied to Air Tran nor have I been turned down by them. I have just observed a lot of discriminatory hiring practices over the past decade, based on false assumptions. And no, I'm not bitter. I just feel for those folks who have worked so hard to get an opportunity have their hopes dashed because of some arbitrary "rule" that no one can challenge. Yes, no one owes you a job nor an interview. But by the same token, everyone is supposed to be equal. It's bad enough to change hiring policy in such a subjective way but @ least have the decency to say it like it is ..."we are proud to be an Unequal Opportunity Employer and we actively discourage diversity in the workplace..." Somehow I doubt they'll do that....but you never know in this business!
___________________________________________
It's Nice to Be Important, But It's More Important To Be Nice

 

[400A]

G-200

see there you go again, first its 135, now it is the beechjet,,, How much Beechjet do you have anyway.

I agree with TY, you are a sad, unhappy person, and I feel sorry for you. I bet you are one of those guys no one wants to fly with because you sit all day and complain. I bet you even complain about flying something as sweet as the 900

Mabe it was the G-200 that made you this way...Not really a Gulfstream anyway, Just an overgrown westwind... I notice none of your ratings say G-- in front of them.. I'm sure that would be important to a guy like you. That means you are not truly a Gulfstream Pilot.

As far as my title, I am sure that outburst made you feel better, and I am sorry you are not one... I bet I know the reason.. As far as my other employees, their titles are Captain, Captain and Charter Coordinator. Not only that, my employees have been with me for a very long time, including when I had the same title at a fortune 500 company with 8 aircraft and 12 pilots. We chose to leave for this employer.

By the way, I did not give myself this title, It is in the corporate charter. I could not care less what the title is. It just means that I am responsible,,, or in your case, the one you would blame your miserable life on.

As far as my job going away,, I dont think so. Plane is paid for. the new one we are getting will be too. Any job can go away, I am betting it will be you and your crappy attitude on the unemployment line first... I'll see ya there!!!!

 

[~~~^~~~]

.... the applications should not have the golden words "we are an Equal Opportunity Employer" embossed on the final page of every application or on their web-sites. Clearly, some people are more equal than others!

It is clear that a policy like this IS discriminatory & those airlines that do it, do themselves a great disservice.

I am ex-military but I don't think I'm special because of it!)

What about the candidate who has stacks of jet SIC time - hypothetically even on a B717 - and through NO fault of his/her own has been furloughed or laid off from several carriers - and NEVER made it to 121 PIC?

the last time I looked in a FOTM, it said that
all First Officers are considered Captains- in-Training .

The folks who do not have 121 PIC time through no fault of their own are not qualified at FedEx, SWA, or Airtran. Just as a Commercial pilot night be training for an ATP, as FO "in training" has not achieved that goal yet and does not have that qualification to put on their resume. It certainly does not mean they are not capable, it just means they don't have what that particular airline requires.

Airlines have the right and the obligation to be discriminatory in hiring. Candidly, I wish there was more discrimination and less of the sqadron mate, buddy system. If hiring could be based entirely on published objective standards candidates could prepare and the best person could get hired, regardless.

When Airtran says they are an "Equal Opportunity Employer" they are simply stating that they abide by Federal Labor Law. I see nothing in Airtan's published minimums that violates any of the following:
Title VII of the Civil Rights Act
The Age Discrimination in Employment Act
The Equal Pay Act
The Immigration and Reform and Control Act, and
The American with Disabilities Act.

Nothing prepares a pilot for the part 121 environment than previous experience in the 121 environment. Part 121 PIC simply means that that person has met the highest standards required for part 121 line flying.

It may seem like the only difference is sitting three feet further to the left, but a lot changes when you put on the Capatin's hat. Until you have been there, had to set the pace, had to make the decisions, had to get the airplane off icy runways and made the zillions of little decisions regarding what is important and what isn't you can not really appreciate the difference. New Captains tend to make a lot of mistakes in the first 500 hours and if Airtran can avoid the difficulties of that transition and obtain some guarantee that the transition will go smoothly - well their discrimination appears to be a bonifide good idea to me.

Regards,
~~~^~~~
(A happy Airtran stockholder)

 

[Gulfstream 200]

"my employees"?....you own them chief??

thats as good as "my co-pilot"

..."charter coordinator"!!!! better you then me bro....

enjoy the "paid for" Beechjet!!!!!

Sounds like a perfect job for you.
I hope you and your employees have a long stable career there.
A good job these days can be hard to find.

 

[b757driver]

Dear AirTran shareholder,

You are correct about FedEx, SWA etc. However, you ARE missing the point. You did not say HOW one gets that experience if opportunities for getting it are taken away!!

How can you get 121 PIC when the very carriers that demand it, automatically exclude you from having that opportunity?! Keep in mind, not all of us have the Midas touch and cannot control the fate of our employers & in turn, our own continued employment. In case you are unaware, at the last count, there were approx. 9,000 highly QUALIFIED & EXPERIENCED pilots pounding the pavement, some with 121 PIC, others with 135 PIC or corporate etc. Having 121 PIC is NO GUARANTEE that you will be successful. If it were, my friend, then EVERYONE would be having these same minimums. Not only that, but how come airlines flying the same Boeings, Airbusses whatever over in Europe, do not demand that their candidates have previous 121 (or eqiv.) PIC time? The market there is much healthier than here currently, so they must be doing something right, don't you think?
Your argument is kinda like the chicken or egg syndrome.

And for the record, before I was experienced/typed on the 737, I had NO PIC on that type, matter of fact, I had NO SIC either. In fact, I had absolutely NO PRIOR airline experience of any sort at that time. Ditto for the 737NG and the 757/767 (PIC/SIC, that is). Did that mean I was not up to it? Of course not, I got all my type ratings in minimal time the first time round with no overages. I even went on to pick up a couple of additional ICAO licenses/ratings. On one occasion, I had not flown the aircraft (SIC- the dirty word) for almost 4 YEARS but was typed. Not only did I GET the job but the only training I received before I was released to the line, was 4 sim sessions and 10 sectors of IOE. Things went so well that I became # 1 FO on the seniority list and became one of 6 pilots to convert straight from the 737-200 to 737-800NG and eventually fly that on the line.
I had absolutely NO PREVIOUS jet PIC time! How on earth was I able to do all this and in minimal time with NO previous airline PIC time? Answer, the company did not care. They were clearly & rightly so, only interested in overall flying ability - not from which seat I flew. Had I stayed for a few months longer (but that's another story), I would have gotten my upgrade on the 737NG, again with no previous experience.

So, you see, 121 PIC time proves absolutely nothing, it's just a smoke screen that people seem to buy into. It's very typical of rules being brought in that have not been thought through properly, if at all; seemed like a reasonable thing to do at the time. Maybe, most likely not. It's unfair, discriminatory & unnecessary. Why do you think that even a senior AirTran Capt (flx757) vehemently disagrees with this policy? And we are talking about a Check Airman here who knows about training. You also mention the word "guarantee" in your final paragraph. There are NO guarantees in life and even less in this particular industry. As a shareholder, you should know all about guarantees aka the stock market. I respect your views but don't agree with them. I have personal experience of this from both operational and overseas perspectives.

We all know about EOE etc. Just seems to make a mockery of mission statements when they can say that when clearly, they do NOT practice what they preach with regard to the pilot employee groups. Once again, it may be legal ,but that does not make it RIGHT.
As they say...only in America!

 

[Ty Webb]

FLX757 has a great amount of experience, but he is currently an FO at AirTran. His Check Airman experience and PIC ecxperience were at other carriers. When I make Captain, I would sure feel lucky to have him as my FO for the few months that separate us on the seniority list, though!

As for the current rules . . . . I think if the pilots had more input over the selection criteria, it would be much different.

Unfortunately, that is not the case . . . . at the present, the DO can set the minimums where he wants them, and we have little say about it.

Oddly enough, under the current rules, if I applied today, I couldn't even be considered for an interview, even though I have already been doing the job for the Company for over a year and a half- simply because I was a 135 PIC, not a 121 PIC before I came here.

Hopefully, this will be changed.

 

[b757driver]

There you go, Ty Webb, exactly my point! Thanks for speaking up. We all know exactly how & why these "deals" are made.

Isn't it amazing that even you would not cut the mustard under the "new" rules - that just speaks volumes, right there!!! And - I suspect a lot of your colleagues are probably in the same boat.

When can we go back to the good old days when the rank and file PILOTS actually had a say on who gets hired? Good God, what a concept that would be?!?!

Thanks for your honesty and fair appraisal of the situation. Slanging matches without real substance lead nowhere; you made your point & you made it well.

 

[ATR-DRIVR]

If i recall the last airline which actually had pilots had some major say in the hiring was Piedmont. When i flew for SAT years ago, I was j/s on a flight and asked them about hiring and that is what he said. No 'HR' dept. "Give me a resume and I take it in and see what the guys think". THAT would be a ray of light.