AirTran management pilots

[waveflyer]

That's not entirely fair Lear. GK Said specifically, and often, that he wanted a negotiated list. That as leaders, he did not want us to proceed to the full length of our process agreement.

Lear, AT pilots, did he, or did he not say that over and over?

And that was emphasized by us too, and dismissed by AT too. Bottom line, it wasn't a threat, so much as reality that integrating AT gets much less profitable if every single employee group draws out their SLI to the length of their PAs. We were following the PA, and he wanted a PA in case swapa turned down the negotiated list- but this is a PRO-ACTIVE company. GK wasn't going to let this get to Usair status- and that's a good thing.

Fred- I have seen many one luv lanyards- especially since this is over- and 99% of every line pilot I talk to calls AT family and SWA now-

But again, I don't know how your family is led, but being family doesn't mean you get everything you want all the time. And I'll say it- I don't want AT pilots negotiating for me in section 6 to roll over, but I don't want the foxhole mentality fighting our mgmt either. Again, fighting for every inch is not what has made this place so great. Neither side takes too much- we all make sustainable wages- and we keep the company rolling.

 

[Lear70]

That's not entirely fair Lear. GK Said specifically, and often, that he wanted a negotiated list. That as leaders, he did not want us to proceed to the full length of our process agreement.

Lear, AT pilots, did he, or did he not say that over and over?

There's a big difference between saying you want something, versus committing to something in writing as a backstop IF a negotiated list couldn't be reached, then later saying you're "investigating options" not to do what you previously committed to in writing.

That's the big issue people have. We understood he wanted a negotiated list. We also understood he signed a Process Agreement that said if one couldn't be reached, then binding arbitration would be implemented and the lists WOULD be integrated. Then we saw the letter saying they would start examining other options besides integration, in direct conflict with that signed Process Agreement.

The bottom line is that you will be hard-pressed to find many AirTran pilots who will tell you they didn't feel they were voting under duress for their careers. It was essentially "take this or we will start the process of separate operations, just like we did with Muse/Transtar". At the road shows with Southwest management representatives in attendance, the Merger Committee was asked if we were voting for our jobs as one of the MC reps had said on an all-pilot Merger Committee update the week before. The Merger Committee said Yes. The SWA management representatives present were then asked the same thing. Their response was "We think your Merger Committee has very accurately represented the situation to you."

That's why AirTran pilots feel the way they do. All the talking on here isn't going to change that simple fact. It's not a personal dig at you or any other Southwest pilot posting on this forum. It's just the way the situation happened, and it's going to take time for us to deal with it. Nothing personal, just the way mergers work... Sometimes one group doesn't feel as great about it; they eventually get over it, but telling them their issue isn't reasonable or belittling their beliefs or feelings on it isn't going to help.

In the meantime, we'll continue to be professional, and I greatly appreciate that your pilots are doing the same.

 

[Lear70]

We did have a third party decide, it just happened to be Gary Kelly. I'm not sure either of the other two parties really saw it coming.

Got a laugh out of me on that one... Pretty accurate, I think.

What can ya do? It's done. Moving on. Time heals all... :beer:

 

[carl p]

Went riding over the weekend in the dez with the family. On the last day about 35 miles into our ride my 10 yo son had a pretty bad crash on his dirt bike in a wash. He crashed at about 35-40 mph and flew about 10 feet landing face first. The paramedics decided to airlift him 60 miles away for further testing. All I could do in the helicopter was pray for his safety and hope for the best. Luckily, thanks to all the pads his only injuries are a black eye along with cuts and scratches on his face from small rocks and sand. I can tell you after something like that the last thing I will worry about is this SLI. It really forced me to look at what are the important things in life...

BTW, he is fine, although it looks like he was in a prize fight. The lesson for him was there's a reason Dad always makes him pad every ride and don't a out ride your visibility. Tough nut is already asking when we can ride again!

Instead of wasting time being angry and bitter, go hug someone you love and appreciate what little time we have on this earth. Just my .02.

 

[Lear70]

Well-said, Carl. Glad he's OK!

 

[K-Mart]

The feeling I've got from people in the room was the AirTran side had the only intention
of going to arbitration unless they got offered relative seniority which they knew they
weren't. Frankly, as a conservative person I find it a good thing that southwest should
be able to do what it wants with the employees from a company it PURCHASED. Anything
else is just socialistic garbage, typical of any union especially ALPA.

 

[PCL_128]

I did, on my commute down to MCO last week, Captain had one on, I even commented on it.

On a side note, this thread has been very useful for one thing: Southwest pilots are finally getting a feel of what I've been trying to say for the last few months. AirTran pilots are going to be upset for a while and it's going to take time for that resentment to lessen. It's on our internal message boards, it's in the crew rooms, it's on the line, and it's finally beginning to show through in several of the posts on this thread from several different people.

Southwest Management built the expectation that we could go to Arbitration by signing the Process Agreement, specifically Paragraph 6.A - "...the resultant arbitrated list WILL be implemented and the lists merged." (paraphrased)

You can't build expectations regarding someone's entire career then tear them down and expect people to be OK with that. Regardless of the legality of the move, it will breed anger and resentment when you tell people you can go to arbitration then say, "Oh we decided we're not going to do that."

Whether you, as a Southwest pilot agree with that is irrelevant.

It doesn't matter what YOU think AIRTRAN pilots should feel. Just as we AirTran pilots have NO RIGHT tell a Southwest pilot what to think. You can't tell someone else what they should feel, think, or believe.

The simple facts are that the Merger Committee is telling people to stay positive and move forward. The Negotiating Committee is telling people to stay positive and move forward. The MEC is telling people to stay positive and move forward. However, the line pilot is still mad about it. Yes, some people are mad at the MEC. No one is mad at individual Southwest pilots, so don't take it personally. But just about EVERY AirTran pilot is mad at the way the whole process worked out and it's disingenuous to lay all the blame at the feet of ALPA.

We all just have to remember that none of us individually are responsible for how things played out. At the end of the day, we're just pilots, and treating each other with respect and professionalism needs to be our focus as we move forward. I try to be friendly and respectful to every Southwest employee I meet, even the not-so-friendly ones, and I appreciate when they do the same (and many of them are friendly and welcoming).

Attitude is everything. I choose to be positive and do my job 100% with a smile on my face. It's all I can do... the only thing I can control is me. Ya'll fly safe... :beer:

Very good summary.

That's not entirely fair Lear. GK Said specifically, and often, that he wanted a negotiated list. That as leaders, he did not want us to proceed to the full length of our process agreement.

Lear, AT pilots, did he, or did he not say that over and over?

I don't blame GK for any of this. Frankly, he never lied about anything or broke any agreement. He made some vague comments about "looking at other options," but that's about it, and everyone panicked. So, I can't really be mad at him. As far as I know, he had every intention of living up to the agreements that he signed. But, Lear is right that a lot of pilots here feel that they were mislead, and that isn't going to go away anytime soon. It will be a long process, and it probably won't even begin until they're wearing SWA uniforms. Until then, everyone will just feel like the redheaded stepchildren.

The feeling I've got from people in the room was the AirTran side had the only intention
of going to arbitration unless they got offered relative seniority which they knew they
weren't.

Absolutely false. I don't even think our MC opened with a proposal for relative seniority.

 

[waveflyer]

Mislead by who, PCL?

Bottom line, you didn't take GK seriously when he asked you to give a very good effort at a negotiated list- sorry, but every AT pilot I've had a conversation with tells it like Kmart said- best case Relative seniority, worst case DOH. Anything else was unsat and GK's request was going to be ignored and the SLI arbitrated whether he liked it or not.

You guys have a revised history about how you tried to strong arm the process, hold the culture over sw's head, and as soon as GK expressed his wish to avoid arbitration and get the list done- there was an increased resolve to use that in the negotiation to further your position - throw in some old fashioned internal politics and overall weirdness from your group, and you got what you got.

Now look at the idea that former AT pilots feel butthurt...?? Considering the list isn't all that great from swapa's standpoint, I really wonder why on earth you guys expected so much?

 

[PCL_128]

Mislead by who, PCL?

Many pilots feel mislead by GK. They feel that he signed a document agreeing to binding arbitration, and then implied that he was going to back out of it. Like I said, I reject this theory, because I don't believe that he actually would have backed out of arbitration in the end, but many pilots feel that way. It's just reality.

Bottom line, you didn't take GK seriously when he asked you to give a very good effort at a negotiated list

There was a very good effort. It's just that your idea of fair was a hell of a lot different than ours. As others have said, that's the whole point of binding arbitration by a third party.

sorry, but every AT pilot I've had a conversation with tells it like Kmart said- best case Relative seniority, worst case DOH. Anything else was unsat and GK's request was going to be ignored and the SLI arbitrated whether he liked it or not.

Well, what you just said was a lot different than what Kmart said. He said relative seniority or nothing. You gave a range of relative all the way to DOH. Those are two very different things. I think most pilots could have voted for DOH and not been very happy about it, but would have lived with it and not been bitter. Myself included. But what we got was a whole lot different than DOH, and the bitterness is going to last a while with a lot of pilots. Instead of trying to convince us that we got a good deal (something you'll never be able to do), you should just try to understand where we're coming from and give us time to move on. It's not going to happen immediately, and it's just going to take longer if you keep pushing it.

Considering the list isn't all that great from swapa's standpoint, I really wonder why on earth you guys expected so much?

Again, your idea of fair is a whole lot different than ours. We look at the list and think you're crazy for not being thrilled with it. You look at the list and think we should be glad just to have a job at SWA. Those two perspectives aren't going to change. Again, that's what independent third parties and binding arbitration are supposed to be for. But that ship has sailed, and we have a deal. We should all learn to deal with it, but again, it won't happen just because you try to force it. It will happen with the passage of time.

 

[humveedriver]

Lots of changes coming SWA's way. This purchase is one of them. I hope you still have that cheerleader spirit in 3 years. I see the pendulum swinging the other way for SWA. No one stays on top forever ( career wise not business wise).I personally don't think SWA is the best place to go right now if you're a new hire seeking left seat progression. I also don't think I will ever see the contract you guys enjoy right now. That was a nice ride funded by a great fuel hedge. Certainly will be interesting to see how it all plays out. I flipped my care switch to off a while back, so I got nothing say about SLI or peoples feelings.

 

[Dude]

I personally don't think SWA is the best place to go right now if you're a new hire seeking left seat progression.

Why the hell would I want "progression" anywhere else in the industry right now when that "progression" to the left still pays less than the right seat at SWA (admittedly not every carrier though)? Aaahhh, the price for ego. You upgrade when you upgrade. PAY ME! That's why you go to work, no to get a tan on your left arm.

 

[Crash Pad]

PCL and Lear are blowing smoke from our message board. The same board that misread the AIP1 by a mile. The same 200 pilots that PCL says is a huge swath of representation. In general I find our pilots annoyed that we didn't get a vote on the first deal. We can blame 7 people who were ALPA reps. I shorten that to ALPA screwed us.

Lear is the best. Telling everyone AIP1 is terrible. Then he goes to Dallas for an hour an comes to the road show saying "whoops guys they are really serious! You should listen to the merger committee". Thanks Lear that's why we sent them. Glad a lot of money later you are on board.

PCL was wondering around the whole process because he was "from national". Who wouldn't trust a 28 year old with bottom feeder experience. What was it Gulfstream, Pinnacle, then AirTran. With that list I wonder if he even has 1000 PIC turbine. If he does then he must have 5 DUIs.

Either way they both have zero feel for the pilot group.

I don't even think about SWA. I don't work there. I applied and got hired at AirTran. I have a class date with SWA in 2015. I am really excited, I hope they move it forward, I can't wait to put this airline in the rear view mirror. Unlike most here Im sure I'll apply once the hiring picks up.

 

[tankerhead]

Apply where? No comprendo.

 

[Crash Pad]

At some point airlines will have to hire pilots again. Delta, United, FedEx, etc... all have people that will either turn 65 or die. I don't think it will be the pilotmageddon that has been preached to me for years, but hiring will happen before my class date at SWA.

 

[Lear70]

Well Crashpad, taking criticism from the line pilots is one of the hazards of union work and you are entitled to your opinion. One of these days down the road when the integration is complete it will be interesting to recount the events of the last year and put them into perspective for people. The truth is a little less clear than the picture you paint.

As I said before, there are those like you who supported SIA 1 who are angry at the MEC. That said, if it's such an overwhelming majority as you allege, why then were less than half of the MEC reps who voted NO for SIA 1 recalled? 4 of the 7 were never even subjected to a recall VOTE.

I stand by what I said before. If you'd like to talk about it over the phone, you know how to find me. Take care, and fly safe.