AirTran headed west

[Ty Webb]

Re: Re: Re: not a real LLC

I asked you to provide examples. You have provided two. What's that? Uh huh. I thought so.

This is too funny. I have provided two recent examples, and, instead of conceding my point, you complain because I only provided you two recent examples? Sorry, FDJ, I don;t have as much leisure time as you, so I just pass them along as they come in.

The fact is, LAX ATL is a huge money maker for us. I support our efforts to defend it at all costs. We should not give you a foothold in this market, especially when you guys have stated that this is a test market.

Funny, that's how I am starting to feel about CVG. . . we shouldn' let you guys get a foothold in that market . . . .

We intend to make sure that the test fails.

Yep. Just like it "failed" in our other 44 cities, right?

I applaud the move. I do not, however, agree that moves like it are the reasons prices are low. I invite you consider the points I made re: the subject on a different post...none of which you responded to.

I did respond. Problem is, you seem to tune out everything that contradicts your preconceived notions.

 

[Eagleflip]

There is a lot of love floating on the board today, gang...

Perhaps my JB co-workers and friends would do well to remember that there is neither glory in gloating over our success nor over other's problems.

Competition is good--70,000 airline folks out of work is yet another level of pain entirely.

To throw my .02 in, I don't believe that LCCs are pulling down the aggregate wage of airline pilots. Does anyone really believe that the market force of 114 aircraft (approximate combined number of AirTran's and JetBlue's fleet) are causing the current slump in the industry and the resultant economic pressure on wages?

If you add Southwest's jets, the numbers are much higher of course. But Southwest has been around for 20+ years--if they (as a LCC) cause wages to decrease, why didn't they have that effect eariler?

Let's not forget that wages are only a fraction of the overall cost issue that the majors must face. AMR, for example, announced yesterday that it must gain $4 billion in annual cost cuts in addition to $1.8 billion in labor concessions to avoid bankruptcy.

Actually, I'll concede that this wage argument is analogous to the chicken and the egg conundrum...And equally as unimportant.

What is important is that we move toward a quick end to this war and out of this recession. Then perhaps our industry--and our friends--can get back to normal

Post edited to correct the AMR cost summary--sorry for the bad info on UAL posted previously. EF

 

[FlyDeltasJets]

Re: Re: Re: Re: not a real LLC

[I did respond. Problem is, you seem to tune out everything that contradicts your preconceived notions.

Actually, you didn't respond. Below is the third time I have posted these questions. Maybe this time you will answer.

Please post all the routes where we increased seats on routes you fly. You have mentioned two. Two does not a trend make. Also, if we kept our prices higher as you suggest, our airplanes would be empty and you would be adding service on every route. Airline tickets are very inelastic, and even a dollar increase in fares over a competitor will usually result in a lost sale. Res computers print lowest price first on an identical route, and the first shown is more often than not the one purchased. Your suggestion to us ignores that reality. There are many other factors that you seem content to ignore in your oft-repeated theory.

A. Every airline is suffering from fares being too low. Your thery seems to indicate that only fares on routes in direct competition to aai should suffer, as well as only those on which we have added capacity to combat you. The reality is more daunting than that.

B. There is too much capacity in the industry, causing airlines to lose their pricing ability. Most airlines recognize this and are cutting capacity. Some (yours included) are adding capacity, further harming the industry's price control ability. Do I blame them? Not really, if it makes sense for them. But it is pretty ironic to hear one of their pilots blame US for low fares by dumping seats in a market!

C. The ONLY airlines who are able to make a profit at current pricing levels are ones who pay their people below industy standard rates. I have mentioned this before, and people always argue that it doesn't have an effect on the profession. If that is the case, why is EVERY airline who does pay industry standard wages asking for concessions (major concessions)? LCC cost advantage lies primarily in wages and benefits. I think all of us, regardless of airline, should be pretty concerned about the future of this career. In most LCC examples, if the majors were to lower their wages and benefits to your level, your airline would die. Without low costs, you could not compete with our routes, schedules, size, international presence, ff program, alliances, cash reserves, marketing budget, etc. Your only choice would be to lower wages. Then we would be exactly where we are now, only making less money. LCC disciples can ignore it if they want, but their wage packages ARE having a devastating effect on this profession. MUCH worse than a few extra seats on a single route out of florida.

I look forward to an answer without an insult.

 

[Ty Webb]

I have responded to all of those questions before, FDJ, and if you really think that I am going to go find some means of retrieving past ticket data for caomparison, you have got to be kidding. If you want to find some way to do that, go right ahead, and we will both review your data, and probably draw different conclusions, as we have on the other matters.

DAL definitely dumps seats in our markets, below their costs, to keep people off of our airplanes. That keeps prices low just as sure as us adding service. The difference between you and me is that you want to blame us for your woes . . . .

Anyway, I would love to go back and forth with you on this ad infinitum, but I have to get to the airport, so I can do my part to drag our industry down.

 

[FlyDeltasJets]

I made three points, you responded to none. So much for a rational discussion.

Enjoy your flight. Fly safe. Good luck in any future contract negotiations.

 

[Daedalus]

FDJ quote--

"In most LCC examples, if the majors were to lower their wages and benefits to your level, your airline would die. Without low costs, you could not compete with our routes, schedules, size, international presence, ff program, alliances, cash reserves, marketing budget, etc."

This is a nice thought, but you're making a big leap on this one. You'll have to do a whole lot more to prove this scenario true.

LCC's are not eating your (major network airlines) lunch just because of "below" industry-standard wages (BTW, what does that really mean?). If DAL, or any other major airline were to lower their costs on par with AAI or JBLU, they would still be at a competitive disadvantage. The difference is how much more productive these employees are than at the network majors. One case in point, with common fleet types at SWA & JBLU, these pilots spend a lot more time flying revenue passengers and less time in training/upgrading (or downgrading) compared to their counterparts at the network majors. Their business plans, flying point-to-point routes, also makes them more productive. If you look at their daily aircraft ute rates you'll find that pilots at LCCs spend more of their work day flying revenue-paying customers than their network major counterparts.

You're right about the fact that there is an overcapcity problem in this industry. But the problem doesn't include the LCCs who are still growing and adding airplanes to their fleets. The overcapcity problem resides solely with the major network airlines who have found themselves chasing too few high-yield business passengers with too many hub-and-spoke aircraft. The LCCs don't need the last-minute business passengers to be profitable, so they are able to make money and thankfully grow their fleets in what would otherwise be a total vacuum for airline pilot hiring.

This brings me to my last point, don't be so quick to blame the LCCs for bringing down the profession. The fact that SWA has successfully grown their operations over the last three decades has resulted in fueling the incredible growth in pilot hiring which has taken place since deregulation. Believe me, if this industry was still regulated and operating in the manner of "cost plus 12%" as it did under CAB oversight there would be many more of us with careers selling women's shoes than pulling Travel Pros through the nation's major airports.

I admire your desire to uphold the profession, but accusing LCCs for lowering the bar rings very hollow. One only has to go back a few years to see how the big major carriers (and their major airline pilot "brothers") have stuck it to pilots at smaller airlines during mergers and buyouts. If you don't believe me just ask the pilots who used to represent TWA, Reno Air, Piedmont, and Republic to name just a few.

 

[FlyDeltasJets]

DAMM! (so as not to offend the censors!)

I had a long post to respond to Daedalus, but we kicked off before I could post. It was a good one, too!

This one will be pretty short in comparison.

Daed,

Thank you for your polite post. You make lots of good points. I think, however, that you underestimate just how big a factor employee wages and benefits are to an airline's bottom line. If one of the majors were to lower those costs (through salaries and yes, workrule efficiency concessions), their costs would be equal to, or in some cases lower than those of most lcc's. This can be confirmed by doing a line by line cost comparison of each airline's 10k reports. (If you are bored enough!) If the costs were then equal, than the lcc's would have little choice but to ask for concessions, for I don't think that they could compete with the major's ff programs, route structure, schedule, alliances, etc.

I post on these boards because I love this career and I enjoy talking about aviation. I also enjoy reading about and discussing the airline industry. I am very troubled by the current trend that seems to be pointing to lower salaries, worse workrules, and a lower quality of life for us all. I am of the opinion that high salaries at any airline benefits all of us, and concessions and lower pay at any airline harms us all. I have always though this way, even when I was at those airlines that pay less. I think that you will find that I have never personally attacked any pilot for his airline, for I know we are all doing our best. However, I have attempted to discuss that trend, and look for input on how we can address the threat. One would think that this being a pilot board, the audience would be receptive. However, most seem content to insult, many express glee at the prospect of concessions from other pilot groups, some even hope for the demise of other major carriers.

I guess I am in the minority on this topic. As such, I will bow out for a while and let others crow about how well their airlines are doing. I wish them the best. I really do. But I will try not to say that I told them so when they are the ones being asked for concessions.

Earlier on this board, someone expressed surprise that in some cases, the major pilots are now being paid less than the national pilots. My question is, what would indicate to that poster that that situation is permanent. What would make him sure that his airline won't be the next to ask for concessions, so his mgt can in turn compete with the major's lower cost? It is a dismal cycle, one which too few people are willing to even acknowledge exists.

Thank you again for your post. You make lots of good points.

 

[FL717]

Daedalus:

What an excellent post, with opinion and facts to back. the problem with FlyDeltaJets is that as a Delta pilot, and now a furloughed Delta pilot, he absolutely REFUSES to look at things from varing sides and is apparantly just to self righteous to agree with anything that someone "lower" than him has to add or say. The most you will get from this guy is "you are right on this ... BUT...blah blah blah." Evertything out of his mouth comes with a "butt" If you disagree he cites "FACTS", which is basically the world according to Him.... then end of subject.

He pretends to take the high road while others just insult, but his social skills on this board ARE insulting... plain and simple.

FlyDeltaJets.. you wants facts huh...here are some FACTS for you. You're FURLOUGHED and aren't even in this (Part 121) industry right now. Yet you have ALL the answers don't you.

As far as I'm concerned its YOUR fault. So your advice and spew means nothing based on YOUR ability (or actually inability) to survive in this industry. If I want industry advice, I'll ask a Southwest Pilot. At least they and their company has truely "figured it out" for the past 30 years. You and your company have NOT and probably won't.

Go ahead and be a martyr, or fanatic and continue your backhanded comments about how "WE" drag this industry down while your company continues its downward spiral. If you really want to show some intelligence.. admit the obvious - that your company CANNOT function as is and must change. BTW - "SONG" is not the change or the answer to Delta problems. Lowering your wages to ours isn't either. And if you did... we'd still be around contrary to your constant ramble "That we'd die". What is the answer... I don't know AND YOU DON"T EITHER, so put a sock in it and stop being the message board messiah. You wanna be an airline executive.. go be one and stop your belittling conversations with us "lowly" pilots..... douche.

Last - what qualifies you the message board "expert"? What are your airline management/executive credentials? As far as I can tell you read the industry pretty wrong to make the career choices you made, yet you are critical of all others "beneath" you. Everyone else contribute to the debate... you just m@sturbate.

 

[FlyDeltasJets]

That's it. You blew it. Now there's no way I am writing you a letter of rec when you try to get hired with Delta.

 

[FL717]

I have to admit... that is a funny response and you obviously have a real wicked good sense of humour!! Good for you!!

I do hope you are doing well during this time.. and I DO mean that, all board banter side.