Airtran 717s to fly for Delta?

[BR715]

First it was welcome to the family and now it's hope you have some ironclad language and contract. You people are unbelievable.

 

[texman]

First it was welcome to the family and now it's hope you have some ironclad language and contract. You people are unbelievable.

Brother we don't even know if it is true or not. I had a great conversation with a AT captain and the Delta/717 option was brought up to me. He asked if this went down what I thought. I said well the planes go and you guys come over here. He said that in your (AT) contract you have a fragmentation clause that is in your CBA, SWA has to honor. The cool thing, if I was in your shoes would be I have a option to going to two great carriers. The people I have encountered from AT are great. I see you guys having a better time over at SWA. I actually want to bid the 717. It would be fun to fly. We are pilots and can not control what the MGT does with the airplanes.

What I see happening is the 717 goes to Delta and we take their 737-800 orders and you guys get over here quicker.

 

[C601]

.... only so much you can say on a public forum.


Yes that "meeting" did take place and I am a horrible story teller, but I was right as mentioned a few weeks ago that SW would not keep the 717s.

 

[StopNTSing]

What texman said...

Everybody just chill out! The fAT guys aren't going anywhere, regardless of what happens to those pesky 717s. If they're going to Delta, it will probably involve a swap with future (and maybe some current) Delta 737s. Just like the 717s weren't all coming to SWA overnight, they won't be going elsewhere overnight either.

 

[ASADFW7]

As just a line pilot, I too think nothing happens overnight. I wouldn't put a lot of hope either way into rumors. The Airtran pilots are SWA pilots on our seniority list. We voted and signed it.

 

[cocknbull]

If I was an AirTran 717 guy I would hope for Delta. I mean seeing how Delta would just offer relative seniority, over half of these guys would be Captains or senior FOs. Vince Garland, Delta Captain... Has a nice ring to it. Hire date 1993. Seniority number 2. Sound good General?

Relative seniority for relative company. Air Tran is not relative to Delta.

 

[DonVerita]

The point that seems to be missing in this discussion is - the protection of ATN 717 Captain seats.

The Transition Bid sorted out who was going where. For the 737 CA's (which was the group that got hosed the most), they could bid to go to SWA F/O and be on SWAPA contract once they got there - or - they could bid to stay on the ATN side of the partition as 717 CA's and when they go to SWA, they would go with the plane and retain their CA seat. SWA pay would kick in on 1-1-2015, but their seat was protected an no SWA pilot could kick them out of it. The only way a SWA pilot could get on the 717 at all would be through a vacancy. Truth be told, a lot of guys bid this way to protect their CA seats indefinately. Their bid award says TBA 717 CA. "TBA" means base assignment. SWA had already come out with a Tampa base announcement for sometime in 2014. So when guys bid in the Transition Bid, they were bidding (and awarded) a 717 CA seat (98% were already holding CA on the 717 or 737) with the base to be in either ATL or TPA. People made critical family and financial decisions based on this information.

There are two questions here:

1. If the 717's go to Delta and the pilots go with them (it would take a large transfer rate for that to happen by the way), do those 717 CA's get DOH or better and hold their CA seats on the 717 when they get to Delta?

2. If the 717's go to Delta but the pilots go to SWA as originally planned, how are those 717 CA seats protected over at SWA since those pilots bid for, and were awarded, CA seats?

The ATN pilots have been through enough of an upheaval with this SLI. There is no reason why a 717 CA should all of a sudden now lose his CA seat after it was already awarded to him, just because Management has another mood swing regarding the 717.

 

[Crash Pad]

I was wondering how long it would take someone to figure out the Captain seats.

 

[Max Powers]

zzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz

 

[Cometman]

The point that seems to be missing in this discussion is - the protection of ATN 717 Captain seats.

The ATN pilots have been through enough of an upheaval with this SLI. There is no reason why a 717 CA should all of a sudden now lose his CA seat after it was already awarded to him, just because Management has another mood swing regarding the 717.

That is life son. Nothing is forever. If the 717 goes so does the seat. You hold what you can hold on the 737. If you think you will automatically go to the SWA side and keep the seat you are dreaming. What you are saying is, if that happens you would be entitled to the seat for the rest of your career. It will never happen. The only thing that is a guarantee is DEATH. And that will be forever.

 

[On Your Six]

Brother we don't even know if it is true or not. I had a great conversation with a AT captain and the Delta/717 option was brought up to me. He asked if this went down what I thought. I said well the planes go and you guys come over here. He said that in your (AT) contract you have a fragmentation clause that is in your CBA, SWA has to honor. The cool thing, if I was in your shoes would be I have a option to going to two great carriers. The people I have encountered from AT are great. I see you guys having a better time over at SWA. I actually want to bid the 717. It would be fun to fly. We are pilots and can not control what the MGT does with the airplanes.

What I see happening is the 717 goes to Delta and we take their 737-800 orders and you guys get over here quicker.

Sorry, there is no way we would take 88 planes at once. It would probably be
metered out to allow SWA to get replacements, and us to train our own pilots, mechanics, and FA's. Also, the MD88/90s are probably going to get all glass cockpits, maybe to make it easier for the FAA to sign off on cross fleeting so pilots can fly all 3.

The SWA pilots on here are worried about zero growth if the new 737s comingonly replace the 717s. That is why some seem to be willing to throw you to the curb as fast as they can. They want the upgrade sooner. Didn't you guys get SOC already?



FAA gives single operating certificate to Southwest, AirTran

Certificate allows carriers to operate as one

By M.J.Subria Aruiaz Friday, March 2nd, 2012
© Copyright 2012 Clayton News Daily



Southwest and Air Tran moved another step toward functioning as a single airline Thursday. The Federal Aviation Administration approved a single operating certificate for the carriers, which marks an important milestone for the integration of both airlines.


Southwest spokesman Brad Hawkins said passengers will start to see the conversion of the AirTran fleet into a Southwest fleet, which include changing the paint scheme and interior configuration on planes and serving more cities.

The complex transition to a single ticketing system for the carriers is expected to be completed by 2015, Hawkins said. “Basically, for the customer there is no difference,” he said. “It means for us internally that we have a [go-ahead] from Uncle Sam to pull all these partitions [together].”

FAA, Southwest and AirTran addressed a couple of regulatory changes on Thursday, including that the Southwest Airlines air carrier operating certificate will be amended to read, “Southwest Airlines Co. and/or AirTran Airways Inc.,” and that both airlines will operate under one set of FAA operations specifications, he said.

“We are moving toward where Southwest and AirTran will be connecting their networks,” he said.According to Southwest officials, this means passengers will be able to book a flight with Southwest and a connecting flight with AirTran, or vice versa. “Creating more combinations until all planes will sport the Southwest livery,” added Hawkins.

For now, said officials, AirTran will begin round-trip flights from Hartsfield-Jackson to Mexico City on May 24. He said in anticipation of receiving the single operating certificate, Southwest recently announced two daily non-stop flights between Atlanta and San Francisco starting on Sept. 30, which will change from an AirTran to a Southwest route.

Southwest, said Hawkins, has also started to change AirTran aircraft. He said that started on Feb. 24 and “it’s about a 40-day process.”
He said the conversion includes painting, interior and avionics. The aircraft is currently in Seattle and is being worked on by a third-party vendor, he said.

The aircraft will have features such as leather seating and a satellite-enabled Wi-Fi, which is currently being offered at an introductory rate of $5, he said. This will allow passengers to use Wi-Fi-enabled devices.
“It’s a definite higher bandwidth, which allows us to offer Wi-Fi connectivity over water,” said Hawkins. AirTran provides Wi-Fi through their partnership with Gogo, according to AirTran’s website,


Southwest currently offers 15 non-stop flights to five cities from Hartsfield-Jackson Atlanta International Airport. The cities and flights include: Four daily round trips to Baltimore,and Chicago; three daily trips to Houston; and two daily trips to Denver and Austin, Texas — a destination previously not served by AirTran.

On March 10, Southwest will start two more non-stop flights to and from Hartsfield-Jackson: to Las Vegas and Phoenix. The airline will offer one-way fares for $109 for both destinations until April 7.
A daily non-stop flight to Los Angeles will begin on June 10, at Hartsfield-Jackson. This is an addition to the three daily flights already operated by AirTran.

Thom McDaniel, president of Southwest Airlines Flight Attendants Union, said AirTran flight attendants will soon transition to Southwest, due to the single-operation certificate. “As we move forward, we are excited about combining our work forces, with special attention to preserve the legendary culture of Southwest,” he said.



That last sentence says it all. Tears in my eyes! Good for you guys.



Godspeed!


The OYSter

 

[SLUF4]

Only two people in this world have a 717 type rating. All that fly the 717 now and before have a DC-9 type.

who are the lucky two?

 

[On Your Six]

Sorry, duplicate post.

 

[gobyebye]

Before, the Delta people I know said we should have given Airtran guys relative seniority and we screwed them over big time. Now, one mention of them going to Delta and the backpeddling begins. Classic.

 

[DonVerita]

That is life son. Nothing is forever. If the 717 goes so does the seat. You hold what you can hold on the 737. If you think you will automatically go to the SWA side and keep the seat you are dreaming. What you are saying is, if that happens you would be entitled to the seat for the rest of your career. It will never happen. The only thing that is a guarantee is DEATH. And that will be forever.

Well son...if the SLI had been done with fair and equitable adhered to, as was written, then "you hold what you can hold on the 737" wouldn't be so much of an an issue now would it? But since we had all of our 737 CA seats stolen from us and had a large chunk of our global seniority taken as well, all while a gun was being pointed at our heads, it's not as easy of a picture to paint as you portray it to be.

 

[Cometman]

Well son...if the SLI had been done with fair and equitable adhered to, as was written, then "you hold what you can hold on the 737" wouldn't be so much of an an issue now would it? But since we had all of our 737 CA seats stolen from us and had a large chunk of our global seniority taken as well, all while a gun was being pointed at our heads, it's not as easy of a picture to paint as you portray it to be.

Move on son, it is over. You got what you voted for. Nobody wants to keep hearing about how you got screwed. If you really do not like it quit and find another job.

 

[On Your Six]

Before, the Delta people I know said we should have given Airtran guys relative seniority and we screwed them over big time. Now, one mention of them going to Delta and the backpeddling begins. Classic.

You will most likely get replacement aircraft at SWA for the 717s. So, you will get to stay there and get this big pay if you get on the 737. What's wrong with that? The announcement hasn't even come out (if it is true), and you are already trying to bail out? If the new planes are replacements for those 717s, then that might mean zero growth, but the pay would be great, and that's good, right? Wait to see if there is an announcement about what may or may not happen first.


Godspeed!


The OYSter

 

[400ADude]

Well son...if the SLI had been done with fair and equitable adhered to, as was written, then "you hold what you can hold on the 737" wouldn't be so much of an an issue now would it? But since we had all of our 737 CA seats stolen from us and had a large chunk of our global seniority taken as well, all while a gun was being pointed at our heads, it's not as easy of a picture to paint as you portray it to be.

:crying::crying::crying::bawling::bawling::bawling:

You guys are lucky to have jobs. Still can't believe we have about 74 of a certain type of your guys getting to come over.

 

[PCL_128]

1. If the 717's go to Delta and the pilots go with them (it would take a large transfer rate for that to happen by the way), do those 717 CA's get DOH or better and hold their CA seats on the 717 when they get to Delta?

If the fragmentation language of our contract was triggered, then there would be a second seniority integration process under ALPA Merger Policy to decide how the pilots would be integrated. In other words, negotiations, mediation, and arbitration. However, you would first have to do a bid to figure out who would go with the airplanes, since it would go in seniority order. After that's determined, then the SLI process would begin.

Of course, this is all academic, since I doubt the airplanes are going anywhere, and almost certainly not with the pilots, since SWA is highly unlikely to make a deal that didn't involve a 1-for-1 swap of airframes. We haven't seen anything to indicate that SWA is interested in shrinking the fleet.

2. If the 717's go to Delta but the pilots go to SWA as originally planned, how are those 717 CA seats protected over at SWA since those pilots bid for, and were awarded, CA seats?

The ATN pilots have been through enough of an upheaval with this SLI. There is no reason why a 717 CA should all of a sudden now lose his CA seat after it was already awarded to him, just because Management has another mood swing regarding the 717.

Captains were awarded conditions and restrictions (C&Rs) that protected their captain seats under certain circumstances. Those circumstances didn't include the loss of the 717s. It was always known that when the 717s eventually do go away, whether it's tomorrow or 10 years from now, that system seniority rules the day. In other words, no protection for captain seats unless your SWA system seniority can hold it.

 

[Hamfighter]

Before, the Delta people I know said we should have given Airtran guys relative seniority and we screwed them over big time. Now, one mention of them going to Delta and the backpeddling begins. Classic.

Thing is, Delta's not merging with AirTran.

 

[PCL_128]

Thing is, Delta's not merging with AirTran.

If the fragmentation language is triggered, it becomes a merger for the people that go with the airplanes.

 

[On Your Six]

If the fragmentation language is triggered, it becomes a merger for the people that go with the airplanes.

Didn't Valuejet buy old Delta DC9s? Did Delta pilots come with them? If they go 20 per year and SWA gets 20 plus 737s per year, I don't see any fragmentation problems, rather an asset sale. If all 88 went in one day, maybe..... And that doesn't make sense. SWA's ATL presence would be decimated in one day. Btw, there are other 717s out there via Boeing that could be used first. I believe Boeing owes DL money for late 787 delays, and they own the leases on the 717s. How could the fragmentation policy be in effect if SWA returns the 717s to the Lessor? If AT didn't own them, and they go to the lessor and get mx and a new paint job, how again can you use fragmentation? You don't own them. What if half went to DL and the other half Air Serbia? Do you get to choose?



Godspeed!


The OYSter

 

[FlyinGuy]

Well son...if the SLI had been done with fair and equitable adhered to, as was written, then "you hold what you can hold on the 737" wouldn't be so much of an an issue now would it? But since we had all of our 737 CA seats stolen from us and had a large chunk of our global seniority taken as well, all while a gun was being pointed at our heads, it's not as easy of a picture to paint as you portray it to be.

Well Gramps....why don't you go change out your depends and take another dose of your fiber. It must be close to 8 pm so it is past your bed time!!!

You can cry about fair and equitable and stolen seats but the bottom line is 86 percent of your group voted FOR SL10. So it must have been tolerable to some....

 

[FlyinGuy]

If the fragmentation language is triggered, it becomes a merger for the people that go with the airplanes.

Can you post the fragmentation language?

 

[PCL_128]

Didn't Valuejet buy old Delta DC9s? Did Delta pilots come with them?

Of course not. Delta was growing like mad at the time. Those pilots all still had Delta positions.

If they go 20 per year and SWA gets 20 plus 737s per year, I don't see any fragmentation problems, rather an asset sale.

Agreed, which is why I said "if" the fragmentation language was triggered. A swap of aircraft (717s for 737-800s, for example) would not trigger the fragmentation language.

If all 88 went in one day, maybe..... And that doesn't make sense. SWA's ATL presence would be decimated in one day.

Agreed. Like I said, this is all just academic. I don't see the airplanes going anywhere, and if they did, it would be a swap, not a reduction in the size of the fleet. Hence, no fragmentation.

 

[On Your Six]

The planes are owned by Boeing, not SWA. If they are returned to Boeing before they go somewhere else, can you fight to be a Boeing pilot? How does that work on leased vs owned planes? What if Boeing wanted them back tomorrow and SWA said ok?


Godspeed!


The OYSter

 

[PCL_128]

Can you post the fragmentation language?

Sorry, too lazy. The quick version is that the fragmentation language kicks in if airplanes that represent more than 30% of our block hours are transferred to another carrier within a 12 month period of time. If that happens, then the company is required to negotiate for the pilots to go with the planes, based on standard company staffing for that number of planes.

 

[PCL_128]

The planes are owned by Boeing, not SWA. If they are returned to Boeing before they go somewhere else, can you fight to be a Boeing pilot? How does that work on leased vs owned planes? What if Boeing wanted them back tomorrow and SWA said ok?

Doesn't matter. The language is written to include "a serious of transactions," not just direct transactions. The airplanes first going through Boeing to get to the new airline is still covered. Any sort of deal worked out in which the airplanes end up with another airline, even if it takes a dozen transactions to get there, triggers the language.

 

[On Your Six]

Sorry, too lazy. The quick version is that the fragmentation language kicks in if airplanes that represent more than 30% of our block hours are transferred to another carrier within a 12 month period of time. If that happens, then the company is required to negotiate for the pilots to go with the planes, based on standard company staffing for that number of planes.

So, 30% of 88 is like 26 or 27 per year. That probably could work. As I stated, there are others out there that could be added first to start the program in the desert now.


Godspeed!


The OYSter

 

[Citrusflyer]

Seriously??!! Is anyone else out there not buying this - at all?