Airlines Must Let Paxs Off Stuck Planes

[Nindiri]

Fine with me. If they want to get out on ramp or taxiway and hike through the snow back to the terminal while the rest of us wait for an empty gate, I don't mind. Special Xmas bonus: when one of them gets sucked into an engine, the pink mist will be festive.

 

[Lear70]

Tell you what, I'm surprised that more passengers don't self-exit the aircraft after 12-16 hour sits.

What's worse? 12-16+ hours trapped in an airplane with no facilities or arrested, taken to a facility with food and working bathrooms, making bail in 3-4 hours, then claiming "kidnapping" (and that HAS stuck so far in court), suing the airline BACK, getting the criminal charges dropped, and getting a nice settlement out of it.

Like I said, surprised it hasn't happened more often. This is probably a smarter move to stave off some self-exit maneuver happening in the future as people get less and less tolerant of these types of delays.

 

[crj567]

3 hours guys. How many times this year did you sit on the ramp with passengers for over 3 hours?

What does this really have to do with the Obama administration.. You Hannity and Rush d**chebags apparently forgot too soon what your cowboy did (or didn't do) prior to this. At least the problem was acknowledged.

Costs will not go up because 4 hours on the taxiway isn't a daily occurrence. And if I were on a flight and it's been 3 hours with no end in sight, I'd sure as hell want to get off, too. Especially if I'm in the back of an RJ.

What does it have to do with the Obama administration? Really? Read a paper lately? Who the heck do you think is in charge?

-You damn sure will know who the hell is in charge when you get stuck paying the new taxes this idiot has come up with for everything! Healthcare surcharge, marriage surcharge, windfall profit surcharge, and blah, and blah, and blah..... You are really gonna have to save up for some rims-son.

-Under these ******************************s, the only line of work that pays well will be crack 'ho.
-Now 'dat be some "truthiness!"

P.S.-Is there anyone on this board who has flown in/out of major hub airports and NOT had a 4 or 5 hour wait? Anyone here who has NOT been number two in line at 3:55? Where the hell have YOU been-at some "Hope&Change" "Hammer&Sickle" rally?

 

[airbrush]

Diversions?

Does this apply to diversions as well? I've spent over 20 years on the Dispatch/Ramp/Ops side of the equation, and I'd like the bureaucrats to explain to me how we handle 7 diversions within 30 minutes' time (easily dropping SEVERAL HUNDRED unexpected "guests" in our laps, when PHL or LGA or BWI or some other large hub has problems) with only 2 gates, 3 gate agents, and maybe 4 rampers.
Not only must we keep our gates free for our normally scheduled arrivals and departures, but when ATC is dangling the "ground stop may be lifted in 45 minutes" carrot in front of everyone, there's barely time to deplane ONE aircraft, let alone several. Then imagine the gate agents making multiple announcements to reassemble a couple of hundred wandering pax scattered throughout the terminal back to reboard several different aircraft when ATC suddenly gives us a 15 minute window to get the flights airborne again. The rampers are also kept busy with requests for lav service, cases of water, running release paperwork to the proper aircraft, coordinating fueling, etc. Meanwhile, various pax on each aircraft are using their cell phones to reserve rental cars inside the terminal, and then demand to be let off individually, and expecting someone to dig out their luggage (yeah, riiiiight). Others call the customer help desk to complain that they are being "falsely imprisoned", so then we get a call to let us know somebody out on our ramp is unhappy and that we need to do something about it. Then there's the diabetic pax who packed their medication in a checked bag (not their carry-on), and the lady with a little dog that has to pee but must have GRASS to pee on, not concrete.....and on it goes.
And how do we decide which flight gets to deplane? First come, first served? The plane with the most pax, and therefore the most exposure to governement fines? The one from the west coast whose pax have been on board the longest? The one who complains the loudest? And what if all of these flights (not to mention the scheduled ones that are coming and going in between) need deiced? We don't have an army of rampers to take care of all of this within some government imposed timeframe.
Although I can sympathize with the plight of pax in these situations (and some real situations do seem absurd), I think this is just another example of lawmakers who think they can take dynamic, complex situations that they barely comprehend and slap a few rules on them that do nothing but further hamper those who have to deal with them in real life, so they can then brag about the "swift action" that they took on the part of the poor and oppressed.

P.S. - By the way, this may sound like a rant, but I actually ENJOY days like that! I just don't like bureaucrats trying to tell us how to do our jobs when they have no clue about some of the realities.

 

[Abernathy]

What does it have to do with the Obama administration? Really? Read a paper lately? Who the heck do you think is in charge?

-You damn sure will know who the hell is in charge when you get stuck paying the new taxes this idiot has come up with for everything! Healthcare surcharge, marriage surcharge, windfall profit surcharge, and blah, and blah, and blah..... You are really gonna have to save up for some rims-son.

-Under these ******************************s, the only line of work that pays well will be crack 'ho.
-Now 'dat be some "truthiness!"

P.S.-Is there anyone on this board who has flown in/out of major hub airports and NOT had a 4 or 5 hour wait? Anyone here who has NOT been number two in line at 3:55? Where the hell have YOU been-at some "Hope&Change" "Hammer&Sickle" rally?

Well, I didn't expect a juvenile response. But anyways, I fly out of ATL, I believe that counts as a major hub. And while, due to an enormous passing storm, I have been stuck on the taxiway for about 2 hours prior to being able to depart, I have never been stuck for 4 or 5 hours once pushed back from the gate. And nowadays, if that does happen, you'll probably hear about it on the news. So no, it's not an everyday occurrence, so don't worry about how your airline will recoup its costs--since you apparently are so concerned with how management is able to line its pockets in the wake of "socialist policies."

 

[J3 Guy]

You can thank a few Captains that would not exercise their authority.

 

[ImbracableCrunk]

A few years ago after a snowstorm in DTW, Mesaba (and NWA, I believe) had self-instituted an "Event-Recovery Policy." As I recall, it was if you had to wait an hour for a gate, then you had an "Event Recovery" and Ops was supposed to find a spot on the ramp and have you deplane from there via mobile stairs on to buses.

Of course that next winter, when the very same thing happened, Ops had no clue what an "Event Recovery" was and they weren't about to find some buses to get our pax off.

Moral of the story: If the airlines were doing a better job, they wouldn't need policies being handed down from the DOT.

AND every reg out there has some story to go with it. They say FARs are written in blood. This reg was a self-inflicted gunshot wound.

 

[scoreboardII]

To cover the multiple diverts, looks like you will have to plan multiple divert locations, not pile them all up at a facility never intended to account for that much traffic. Seems reasonable really.

What will be interesting is how many complaints arise when flights start canceling and now folks are stranded in the wrong city. "oh wait, I'll sit on that plane for four hours just get me there..." "Nope, sorry, it's the LAW!"

Unintended consequences...

 

[airbrush]

What usually happens with multiple diverts is that our mainline company, as well as more than one of our contract carriers, will all use our station as an alternate because we are geographically convenient to a couple of big hub cities. When things hit the fan, the diversion decisions are usually made independently by the individual crews/dispatchers of each flight, without necessarily coordinating with each other. There is someone at SOC who is supposed to handle this type of thing, but that doesn't always work when things happen quickly. Sometimes the first warning we have of a diversion is when the flight calls in range asking for a gate. We can usually deal with things as they come, it's just that sometimes these things happen at just the wrong time, like when we only have a few people due to the structure of our schedules. We also will call SOC and tell them to pass the word to everyone that we cannot take any more diversions.

 

[Fearless Tower]

The regulation provides exceptions only for safety or security or if air traffic control advises the pilot in command that returning to the terminal would disrupt airport operations.

Is it just me or does this seem kind of like a pointless, do-nothing rule?

So the airline can only keep people on the plane for up to 3 hrs...UNLESS removing them will disrupt airport operations. Then the rule doesn't apply.

Seems to me, most cases of folks getting stuck on the ramp were largely because their airline could not find a way to bring them in without disrupting ops.

 

[mamba20]

Interesting that they pound out this little gem but the FAA still can't revise crew duty and rest times. Priorities are clearly in the right place. . .

 

[BLUE BAYOU]

Well, I didn't expect a juvenile response. But anyways, I fly out of ATL, I believe that counts as a major hub. And while, due to an enormous passing storm, I have been stuck on the taxiway for about 2 hours prior to being able to depart, I have never been stuck for 4 or 5 hours once pushed back from the gate. And nowadays, if that does happen, you'll probably hear about it on the news. So no, it's not an everyday occurrence, so don't worry about how your airline will recoup its costs--since you apparently are so concerned with how management is able to line its pockets in the wake of "socialist policies."

Ever been to JFK on a crappy day, or better yet, any day? Throw in the fact that Runway 31L will be closed for 6 months next year-- it should be quite interesting--

 

[ultrarunner]

Looks like our government actually did something that makes sense.


J3

What's really PATHETIC is that it needed to be legislated in the first place.....

Protecting us from the lack of common sense, I guess....

 

[Caveman]

These are the same knuckleheads that are going 'fix' health care too. God help us....

 

[Lear70]

I've been doing this for over 2 decades. I've been stuck on an airplane in a hub for 4+ hours exactly ONCE. In ATL, actually AFTER we landed, after T-storms had been pounding the area all day, crews had timed out, and planes were stuck at gates.

Problem #1: The thunderstorms delaying things until crews were starting to time out.
Problem #2: Mixed flight crews to save money from hiring more F/A's. You'd have a plane at the gate with pilots but no back end crew because they were stuck out on the tarmac waiting for THAT plane to push, and another plane next door with F/A's but no pilots because THEY were in that other plane waiting for that gate.
Problem #3: Not having a contingency plan to push the plane off the gate with a Mx crew or just one pilot to get it somewhere else on the ramp or a back taxiway and park it to free up that gate.
Problem #4: Inadequate advance planning, knowing the storm was coming, but not putting any type of "contingency plan" in effect EARLY, BEFORE the storm hits, to minimize your problems once it's here.

I agree with previous posters, that hopefully this will incentivize the airlines to come up with a reasonable contingency plan. If they simply instruct their station managers to tell the tower controllers that "it would disrupt our operations to allow that aircraft to come back - we don't have the facilities to accommodate another 130+ people in the airport or the staff to address their re-booking", this will accomplish nothing, and will STILL require the pilots to eventually stand up for themselves and force the issue. Sure was a lot easier in an RJ where the stairs were on the door... Did that twice in the 5 years I was at PCL, simply taxied back in, found a convenient and safe spot, parked the plane, shut down, and opened the door, refusing to move. Funny how quick they come to get your people when you're blocking the entire ramp operation.

Airbrush, no offense, but when I deem it necessary, I *AM* coming back to the terminal, and it's the ground crew's job to make that happen. If you're boarding up another plane and need another 10 or 20 minutes and I don't have a medical or security emergency? Sure, take your 10 or 20 minutes. If that flight looks to be delayed on a ground hold, those people have been in the terminal for a while, THEY can go sit out on the tarmac and wait while we, who have been out there for hours, get to come in. Load them up and push the plane off the gate.

If you have to take a pilot or a mechanic and push an empty plane back OFF the gate and hard-stand it, then do it. If you can't, get the air stairs that EVERY airport keeps on-property for jetbridge breakdowns and walk them in. You guys know what you need to do to make that happen, just understand that I am *GOING* to do what is required for the safety of my passengers. Being trapped on an airplane for extended periods of time (6+ hours) IS a safety issue.

The minute I stop being responsible for my passenger's safety is the moment I don't need to work in this industry anymore. We bear a responsibility to our passengers. It's a delicate line, but once that line is crossed, it's time to get them off the plane and somewhere they can address their basic bodily needs.