Airlines fight for the bottom of the barrel

[GogglesPisano]

Oh for Pete's sake Googles, please edit that and don't get the yipman started on the college degree thing again!

Please.


Good thing I've got the yips on ignore, cause I can't stand to hear his rants about college and the mystical 100K barrier he can't seem to comprehend. If you guys would quit quoting him I would never have to read his posts!

FJ

Did I say college degree? I meant to say "Collage in Pee," it's an obscure work by Koenig.

 

[AA717driver]

Sounds good to me! Many will lose their jobs but the ones who remain will have an enviable career once again. Its better to have a career where all who are involved in it can live the good life than the 2 bit pilot jobs that are out there now.

Yeah, but the problem is, you're not going to be one of those who gets the job. Remember what group was the majority of the newhire airline pilots in the late 60's/early 70's?

It was the guys with bags of time in the military. Few strictly civilian pilots got jobs at the majors at that time.

I'll take my crappy low-six-figures job over a crappy mid-five-figures job any day.TC

 

[pilotyip]

717, stop dealing with reality this is a pilot board. Don’t confuse anyone with facts, it makes too hard to hold fantasy's together.

 

[800Dog]

Yeah, but the problem is, you're not going to be one of those who gets the job. Remember what group was the majority of the newhire airline pilots in the late 60's/early 70's?

It was the guys with bags of time in the military. Few strictly civilian pilots got jobs at the majors at that time.

I'll take my crappy low-six-figures job over a crappy mid-five-figures job any day.TC

And there folks is the problem. Can you say "lack of self worth"?

 

[Dennis Miller]

Remember what group was the majority of the newhire airline pilots in the late 60's/early 70's?

It was the guys with bags of time in the military. Few strictly civilian pilots got jobs at the majors at that time.

Those civilian guys in the 60's and 70's weren't getting the Jet time that you see now. Most had more prop time than Marilyn Chambers.

 

[pilotyip]

and who is 800 to determine self-worth, is it really Ann Landers under cover or better yet Dr. Laura in her free time.

 

[tarp]

As to the original theme of the thread......

Your Business/First class customer who used to go to the airlines is long gone.

They didn't want to wait in TSA lines.
They didn't want to wait for the 120 people sitting behind them in steerage.
They didn't want to wait for surly airline employees to do their job.
They didn't want to wait for airlines to figure out their schedule.
They didn't want to wait because a little light bulb said that the third backup hydraulic system might have a problem.
They didn't want to wait in a taxi or limo because airlines only go to big airports and not directly to the resorts and factories.
They didn't want to wait at ORD, JFK, LGA, ATL, LAX, MIA, SFO, etc, etc for ATC to figure out which runway they were going to use.
They didn't want to wait at a hub (as in hub and spoke).
They didn't want to take the chance that they would get stuffed in a CRJ with no first or business class.

Your well-heeled customer wants the airplane waiting for them - - not the other way around.

Or, if you want to look at it the other way around, the airlines get the customers who will accept all of the difficulties listed above. Now, would YOU pay $300 to go one way anywhere knowing there's a greater than 50% chance that one or more of the above will happen to you?

At $600 round trip and knowing the airlines like I do, I'd rather fly a Cherokee to my destination than put up with all that BS.

 

[Tejas-Jet]

You can thank American Airlines for killing Legend. Legend was flying from Dallas-Luv to LAX, ORD, IAD. They operated with DC9s. Then AA refitted a couple F100s to all first class and matched them route for route. As soon as Legend was gone, so was AAs service. I never flew on Legend but I did fly on AA from LAX-DAL-IAD. I think the F100 had about 54 seats and 4 flight attendants. Both flights had less than 15 pax on each flight.

Even before Legend got started, AA kept them tied up in litigation for a long time, which caused Legend to spend lots of their money. Legend also had a hard time finding backing from the North Texas congressional delegation. All those "pro business/competition" congressman wilted under the fear of no support from AA.

Eventually, they finally got going, then AA came in to DAL to compete against them. AA got 3 gates at DAL. This competition is where the Love Field Master Plan came from. That limits DAL to no more than 32 gates maximum and 250 flights a day. Legend, AA and SWA all signed on to this plan.

Before Legend, remember that AA was also awarded a state contract to fly from DAL-AUS. Those MD-80's flew around with 20-30 people for a long time, until AA quit that too.

Legend went out of service in late 2000. AA actually announced they were pulling out of DAL on September 12, 2001.

Funny, but shortly after that, AA went to the Dallas City Council wanting to get out of thier long term lease on those 3 gates. The City Council would not let AA out of the deal....so all this time AA still was paying on those gates and only recently they've come back to fly from DAL to STL, MCI with MD-80's and SAT, AUS with Eagle.

Seems like the city council decision in 2002 was good for AA.

Tejas

 

[VABB]

There was another airline 1999 time frame, strictly first class cater to the people who want something extra. It was called Legend out of DAL, it lasted about 6 months, maybe less. Pay was below average.

What?!?!? You mean all of the pilots weren't making $100K/yr??

 

[pilotyip]

100K still is cool

Nope VABB not even close, the F/O's were not even making DA-20 wages, based on calls from pilots who went there. I assume the $100K figure would have happily greeted.

 

[AA717driver]

And there folks is the problem. Can you say "lack of self worth"?

Ok, so you're saying that I should just give up on being a pilot if I can't make $200k/yr.? Yeah, pilots used to make the same money as physicians. Guess what? With managed practices, doctors don't make what they used to--AND their workrules suck, too.

You go ahead and stand on the sidewalk with your picket sign demanding "fair" pay. BTDT. I'll keep collecting my six-figure checks...TC

P.S.--those here who know me can assure you I don't have any problems with "self worth".

 

[B727FA]

I think United runs a 757 or two from coast to coast with all 1st and business class seats. It has a name, but it slips my mind for now. I hear it is doing good, whatever that is worth.

You're thinking of "ps by United."

 

[AC560]

As to the original theme of the thread......

Your Business/First class customer who used to go to the airlines is long gone.

They didn't want to wait in TSA lines.
They didn't want to wait for the 120 people sitting behind them in steerage.
They didn't want to wait for surly airline employees to do their job.
They didn't want to wait for airlines to figure out their schedule.
They didn't want to wait because a little light bulb said that the third backup hydraulic system might have a problem.
They didn't want to wait in a taxi or limo because airlines only go to big airports and not directly to the resorts and factories.
They didn't want to wait at ORD, JFK, LGA, ATL, LAX, MIA, SFO, etc, etc for ATC to figure out which runway they were going to use.
They didn't want to wait at a hub (as in hub and spoke).
They didn't want to take the chance that they would get stuffed in a CRJ with no first or business class.

Your well-heeled customer wants the airplane waiting for them - - not the other way around.

Or, if you want to look at it the other way around, the airlines get the customers who will accept all of the difficulties listed above. Now, would YOU pay $300 to go one way anywhere knowing there's a greater than 50% chance that one or more of the above will happen to you?

At $600 round trip and knowing the airlines like I do, I'd rather fly a Cherokee to my destination than put up with all that BS.

This is very true which is why you see so much growth in the fractionals. If you are a small business traveling to odd ball locations it is much more cost and time effective to fly 3-4 people around in a company jet or a fractional then it is to go through the airlines (though sitting in economy class sure beats riding in a Lear).

 

[800Dog]

Ok, so you're saying that I should just give up on being a pilot if I can't make $200k/yr.? Yeah, pilots used to make the same money as physicians. Guess what? With managed practices, doctors don't make what they used to--AND their workrules suck, too.

You go ahead and stand on the sidewalk with your picket sign demanding "fair" pay. BTDT. I'll keep collecting my six-figure checks...TC

P.S.--those here who know me can assure you I don't have any problems with "self worth".

What physicians are you talking to? My cousin is an ER surgeon and my Uncle is a cardiologist and they make big $$$. There are some pcps making much less but many doctors still rake in huge money. My surgeon just bought a Pilatus. I am not saying you should give up anything but rather you should work on setting the bar higher rather than lower. 200k is no longer the norm because guys like you will do the job for less. Why would you do that when you could have made more money elsewhere instead of degrading the profession? Could you not get hired by the majors that were paying better wages and had better work rules and a retirement?

 

[XShipRider]

As to the original theme of the thread......

Your Business/First class customer who used to go to the airlines is long gone.

They didn't want to wait in TSA lines.
They didn't want to wait for the 120 people sitting behind them in steerage.
They didn't want to wait for surly airline employees to do their job.
They didn't want to wait for airlines to figure out their schedule.
They didn't want to wait because a little light bulb said that the third backup hydraulic system might have a problem.
They didn't want to wait in a taxi or limo because airlines only go to big airports and not directly to the resorts and factories.
They didn't want to wait at ORD, JFK, LGA, ATL, LAX, MIA, SFO, etc, etc for ATC to figure out which runway they were going to use.
They didn't want to wait at a hub (as in hub and spoke).
They didn't want to take the chance that they would get stuffed in a CRJ with no first or business class.

Your well-heeled customer wants the airplane waiting for them - - not the other way around.

Or, if you want to look at it the other way around, the airlines get the customers who will accept all of the difficulties listed above. Now, would YOU pay $300 to go one way anywhere knowing there's a greater than 50% chance that one or more of the above will happen to you?

At $600 round trip and knowing the airlines like I do, I'd rather fly a Cherokee to my destination than put up with all that BS.

Well, I paid full first class fare and was bumped by a college kid returning
from South Padre Island. How do I know? Because the plane was full
of nothing but kids returning from Spring Break.

I know most of these kids paid super-saver (yes, well in advance). But
it seemed to me the airlines were shooting themselves in the foot by
so doing. Here I am paying full fare 1st class(!) yet they allowed me
to be bumped. Are you kidding me? I'm pretty sure I'll never fly
Continental again.

As for buying into a fractional -- I clearly pointed out I'm not wealthy.
I just part with the cash, cash I don't necessarily have lying around,
to fly in better seats (unless I'm bumped!).

One thing I don't understand - why do airlines persist in flying
unprofitable routes? You pilots know the biz a helluva lot better
than I ever will. Anybody?

Being bumped is the issue which preceded this post. All I could think
was "why are the super-savers getting on the plane and the 1st class
pax being bumped?"

End of whine.