Airline Mergers and seniority lists

[shon7]

It seems that there has never been a successful airline merger with regards to how the seniority lists are combined.

From a pilots perspective if airline A buys out/merges with airline B -- how you want the seniority lists to be combined? Or is the seniority issue the core of the problem.

Finally, how many would agree with the current "seniority" system at airlines; and are there any viable alternatives to this?

 

[Capt. Caucasian]

It seems that there has never been a successful airline merger with regards to how the seniority lists are combined.

Sure there have been. If at the end of a merger nobody is happy, then it was a good merger.

Also, read up on ALPA Merger and Fragmentaion policy. Of course this only applies to ALPA carriers.

As far as alternatives to the traditional senority system look at many of the European airlines. Man, they get a bit wierd.

Frats,

 

[General Lee]

I think the main reason Continental was brought back into ALPA was because of the ALPA merger policy with regards to seniority. It was to safegaurd the CAL pilots, and any other pilots if CAL bought someone. I think there is always someone who feels "screwed" in the merger process----but in reality atleast they have a job or number. I do think the TWA guys got the short end of the stick at AA, but again TWA would have vanished after 9-11 anyways----and hopefully those guys that got furloughed will eventually fly large AA aircraft.

We have been hearing rumors that DL and CAL might eventually merge----and be called "DelTaco."

Bye Bye--General Lee

 

[AA717driver]

If a TWA pilot was 30 or younger and AA stays the same size, they will be ok in 10 years or so.

For those of us who are in our 40's and had been Capt.'s for several years and who are now on the street, this was not a good deal. Had TWA gone under in early 2001, many of us would have ended up at JB or AirTran(on the front end of the hiring) and would have a chance at a successful ending to our career.

For me, for my quality of life, going back to AA is not an option.TC

 

[Capt. Caucasian]

I think the main reason Continental was brought back into ALPA was because of the ALPA merger policy with regards to seniority. It was to safegaurd the CAL pilots, and any other pilots if CAL bought someone.

While logically this is true, this issue ALMOST cost us a yes vote to merge with ALPA. There were many (in the range of 700 to a 1000) that thought CAL would be screwed over during a merger because of lingering animosity towards strikebreakers. This was of course not true, and DW got the C&BLs clarified to make sure this could not happen. Some of the CAL guys were worried that the two pilot neutrals would not be so neutral and vote in favor of the other pilot group. Of course, the pilot neutrals can not vote and that needed clarifing.

In the event of there being a "Deltanental" ALPA Merger Policy will help considerably for both sides. But, how many times now have they almost merged? Heck, my Dad wanted me to get on with CALEX instead of ASA because he thought that I would be better of in the event of a merger. Now we just need to get that flow-through running again .

Frats,

 

[FurloughedAgain]

Although seniority is taken into consideration in a merger, ALPA's current merger policy is based on career expectations and "no windfalls".

Straight date-of-hire would almost never be the case under these current guidelines. Most likely there would be slotting with fences to protect the career expectations of both groups.

 

[sayagain?]

Only one person would be happy in a merger and that would be the pilot holding sen. #1. Everyone else would think that they somehow got screwed.

sayagain?

 

[fracflyer]

ALPA hasn't always followed it's own Merger and Fragmentation policy. In a bit of ironic history, TWA pilots screwed over the pilots at Ozark (another ALPA carrier) when TWA purchased the carrier in 1986. ALPA attempted to enforce the merger policy but the TWA pilots threatened to withdraw from ALPA and ALPA backed down. The TWA pilots gave the Ozark guys strait date-of-hire. Since TWA was a stagnant old carrier and Ozark was a relatively new growing carrier, this resulted in Most of the Ozark captains losing their captain's seats and many F/O's being kicked to the street while furloughed TWA pilots were brought back to fly the Ozark DC9's. They also added restrictions to keep the Ozark pilots from upgrading the widebody aircraft until all pre-merger TWA pilots had upgraded. Anyway, the rest is history. The Ozark pilots got dragged into the mess that was TWA. A couple of lawsuits were unsuccessful.

 

[TWA Dude]

The bottom line is that when businesses merge the employees lose. With pilot group integrations the dominant carrier gets the advantage, ALPA merger policy notwithstanding, because they get to subjectively decide what the "career expectations" are.

In the Ozark/TWA merger the OZ pilots were coerced by pain of furlough to give up arbitration rights and in the TWA/AA merger the TWA pilots were coerced by pain of contract annullment to give up theirs. Methinks the next big integration will be equally if not more contentious than the last. It's an ugly business.

Dude

 

[AlbieF15]

Buddy of mine who flew at UAL in 2001 described a US Air guy coming onboard as a jumpseater and "looking the place over", as he described how he hoped to be flying there soon. This was in the heyday of UAL/UA discussions on the "big merger".

Crew of UAL jet was NOT HAPPY with this guy's attitude, which was sort of like "can't wait to move into my new digs." UAL guys, expecially the junior FO and SO were thinking "who does this guy think he is?". At the same time, that UA guy likely had 10 years of seniority on every United guy on the jet except the captain, so odds were he WOULD be doing well if the companies had merged.

Bottom line to this sad little soap opera is darn near everyone at both companies ended up a loser. UA guys are bailing looking for work at other carriers, are furloughed, or facing death of their company. Both the FO and SO on that ORD United Jet are furloughed, and United is scraping buy fighting for its life. What a tough, tough business...

 

[surplus1]

Would any of you care to name one instance in which you believe "ALPA Merger Policy" or "Fragmentation Policy" resulted in a fair integration of seniority?

Please give the reason for your belief and tell us which side of the "fence" you were on.

 

[Jack Schitt]

This has to be the shortest post ever for surplus1