Aircraft speed for a new jet pilot...

Mesabi Miner

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Here's the scenario:

Center assigns you 300 knots while at 11,000 feet for spacing and immediately hands you off to approach control. Approach clears you to 8,000 feet right off the bat. Do you:

1 - Slow to 250 by 10,000 as per the Reg below, or

2 - Is the instruction by Center 15 seconds prior "authorization by the Adminstrator" to continue at 300 knots for the descent?

3 - Or, do you query approach immediately as to their speed requirement when you check on?

I figure that ignorance is NOT asking this question, so I decided to. I'm rather new to airplanes that can actually achieve 300 knots.

MM

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§ 91.117 Aircraft speed.

(a) Unless otherwise authorized by the Administrator, no person may operate an aircraft below 10,000 feet MSL at an indicated airspeed of more than 250 knots (288 m.p.h.).
 

SSDD

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This has been covered a few times before so I'll just hit the high points:

A An individual controller is not the Administrator, so he can't waive the restriction.

B You are expected to slow down before descending below 10,000'.

C Before somebody brings it up, the Houston waiver was only for departures and it expired years ago.

Hope that helps.
 
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paulsalem

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You are also allowed to level at 10,000 if needed to bleed the speed off. It won't catch the controller off guard. Just start down to 8,000 once you reach 250.
 

OurMoney1

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Dont worry Microsoft Flight Sim doesn't issue violations yet.
 

atpcliff

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Hi!

When you hit 10K, slow to 250.

HOWEVER, if the controller yells at you and it sounds like you're going to die, then do whatever he/she says, including speed up over 250 below 10K. This has happened to me twice.

Also, from what I can tell, it is not legal for us to go over 250 below ten, but I have heard from multiple controllers that they ARE authorized to tell us to fly faster. So, apparently, there are a number of controllers who don't understand the situation.

cliff
GRB
 

Mesabi Miner

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Dont worry Microsoft Flight Sim doesn't issue violations yet.
Ha! Gotta love it. No, just 6000 hours in the Saab 340 and 130 in the CRJ. Slightly different performance numbers...

Thanks for all the responses. I think it's a safer bet to slow down and get yelled at than to get yelled at for doing 310 at 8,000 ft.

MM
 

CA1900

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Thanks for all the responses. I think it's a safer bet to slow down and get yelled at than to get yelled at for doing 310 at 8,000 ft.
"Yelled at" isn't as bad as "violated." ;)

The speed restrictions in 91.117 (Aircraft Speed) specify who, if anyone, can waive them:
  • 250 below 10,000: Only the administrator can waive it.
  • 200 within 4nm or 2500 feet of a Class C/D Primary airport: ATC can waive this one.
  • 200 below the floor of Class B: nobody can waive it.
 

Lrjtcaptain

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Not a center controller, just the tower but If you are issued 300kts at 11,000 and descended to maintain 8000 you need to be slowing to 250kts. There are circumstances however which do allow us to break the rules from time to time and that is when it is an operational necessity.

This is off topic but an example of us allowing higher then the normal speeds. Heavy jet departures quite frequently are unable to comply with the altitude crossing restrictions in our DP. These aircraft also inform us they are going to need to climb at either 270kts off the ground and sometimes even 280kts for safety reasons. I have yet to read a waiver we have for this but we coordinate these daily. Its normal operation. Are we acting on the administrators behalf. I think so. I think that unless autorhized by the administrator thing doesn't really mean the adminstrator as cart blanche and could sit down at a scope and approve it. How often would that happen. We represent them and can approve and do approve these deviations daily with FAA approaval. Like i said, if we need or you need then do it. If unsure as what you are to do, ask the controller. If you get a controller that barks at you for asking a question which may lead to you or them having a reg deviation, then they have no business being a controller. Ask important questions, we do sometimes have the right answer believe it or not.
 

yournextFO

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91.117(d) ..If the minimum safe airspeed for any particular operation is greater than the maximum speed prescribed in this section, the aircraft may be operated at that speed.

I'm assuming the minimum clean speed of a fully loaded heavy is above 250 kts?
 

blesko

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In the CRJ (200) it takes 8 NM to make the slow from 330 kts to 250 kts without boards (used fairly well for crossing restrictions). The stick of shame is for my screw ups, not ATCs. Coming from the 135 worlds, boards are too loud and rattle the airplane, figure out how to actually fly the plane.

Now, with that being said, if the throttles are closed at 11000, 700 fpm down will slow the airplane from 330 to 250 and hit 10000 every time. You can do both in the -200 if you plan ahead.

I'd do both at the same time, slow and descend. See what the -900 will do minus boards. Perhaps its 600 fpm at flight idle. If it doesnt work, level at 10 and try it next time.

People tend to panic and use the boards. The -200 will descend at 2500 fpm at flight idle at 250 kts. That should be close for the -900. Perhaps a little sleaker, so maybe 22-2300.

Hope that helps
 

paulsalem

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Our 200s will do 2000fpm at 250 kts and the 700 is about 1800fpm.
 

Lrjtcaptain

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In the CRJ (200) it takes 8 NM to make the slow from 330 kts to 250 kts without boards (used fairly well for crossing restrictions). The stick of shame is for my screw ups, not ATCs. Coming from the 135 worlds, boards are too loud and rattle the airplane, figure out how to actually fly the plane.

Now, with that being said, if the throttles are closed at 11000, 700 fpm down will slow the airplane from 330 to 250 and hit 10000 every time. You can do both in the -200 if you plan ahead.

I'd do both at the same time, slow and descend. See what the -900 will do minus boards. Perhaps its 600 fpm at flight idle. If it doesnt work, level at 10 and try it next time.

People tend to panic and use the boards. The -200 will descend at 2500 fpm at flight idle at 250 kts. That should be close for the -900. Perhaps a little sleaker, so maybe 22-2300.

Hope that helps
This has nothing to do with the topic of what to do when issued speed assignments in the air.

For your screw ups, not ours? Not original there, I think I read that a million times now in emails floating around about pilot to controller communications. Nice try. Try to be original
 

paulsalem

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Yea I agree with LRJcaptain here.

We're both on the same side. They cover our ass more than we cover theirs.

I hate using the spoilers as well blesko. But when we're at 180kts and asked for best rate down, I cringe but out the boards come...gently.
 

Huggyu2

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91.117(d) ..If the minimum safe airspeed for any particular operation is greater than the maximum speed prescribed in this section, the aircraft may be operated at that speed.
This is what allows some military aircraft to fly faster than 250 below 10K'
 

blesko

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If you need speed first, tell us you need the first vs the altitude, otherwise we're gonna do both. If you need us to "expedite" I'll throw everything out to make it work and reduce your pucker factor.

My point is this, if you're at 11 and 300, slow to 250 AND cross 10 at the same time. That's all that was about. He asked for ways to make it work.

I'll help you out and reduce your OE, and you help prevent my PD, however when I'm cookin along at 330 and I get a reduce immediately to 210, I dont have much sympathy.
 

Stifler's Mom

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Slow to 250 at 10,000 feet. (At ASA, it's even stated this way in our Operating Manual)

The CRJ 200 will do 250 KIAS at idle power with an 1800 fpm decent.
 
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