Aircraft Owners - ???

[minitour]

So my wife and I have been tossing around the idea of buying an airplane. Now I've heard the "If it flys, floats or fcuks its cheaper to rent" thing but...I did get married .

Anyway, those of you owners out there, I'd be looking for a 4-6 seat twin that operates relatively inexpensively and is capable of flying into known ice...since I live in the NE, I can't imagine winters would be easy to get around ice...

Just wondering if there are more plusses to it than negatives? I suppose I could end up getting my MEI if I owned a twin and just do instruction in my own plane. That could be fun to build time...and experience near death experiences in the process.

So I'm looking for advice on...well everything.
What type? How much can I look at spending? Insurance? Maintenence? Storage? Is a leaseback worth it? Anything specific I should look for? Any other advice you can give me?

Problems I'm seeing:
1. Cost - Money is something that I don't have a lot of but I could probably get a loan

2. Time - When I'm done with my Commercial Multi I'll probably have 10 ME hours. The official word is "since its only 'to proficiency' it could be one it could be ten it could be fifteen".

3. Insurance - Due to number 2, I realize its going to be tough to get insurance if I can get it at all. Also, I really know nothing about aircraft insurance.

4. Weight limitations and range - If we're going to do this, we want something that can get us and (eventuall kids) friends or family to a weekend destination (Myrtle Beach, Niagra Falls, Vegas ) with bags and minimal fuel stops. Am I asking enough?

Okay I think thats it. I know I'm probably forgetting a lot so...if you've got any good advice....

-mini

 

[Flyin Tony]

Piper Twin Comanche I like the PA30 myself, but I have only looked at them. Also you can get a PA23-150 for cheap

 

[minitour]

anything I should know about them?

 

[Vik]

I agree with FlyinTony because I own a PA-30 however, it is not cerified for known ice. I have seen a model with de-icing equip on it for sale on trade-a-plane, but its not certified for known-ice. It just had the equip should you fly into unexpected ice, and then again, i don't think the de-icing equip is located on the stabiliator on the PA-30 which is the first item to ice up and stall.

The PA-30 is a great airplane. 160-165 KTAS @ 16gph TOTAL. It has a decent usable payload, carries 4 passengers, models after 1965 were built for 6 but the last two seats are "kiddy seats" and most people take them out for a larger baggage area and to keep insurance down.

If your profile is right and you have less than 250 hrs, it is going to be painful at best to get insurance. I'm not sure how much complex time you have.

I have 355 hrs, over 100hrs complex and I pay Avemco around $7k. Depending on how much you plan to fly, you could get that amount down rather quickly because Avemco counts each hour in the PA-30 as 2.5hrs towards their insurance ceilings .. 1hr for multi time, 1hr for make and model and 0.5hrs for complex. I'm close to getting the next discount of around 10%. I have two other pilots on my policy because I split flight time with them and they always base the insurance on the lowest time pilot, so keep that in mind.

Over half the pilots on my field only have liability insurance. It pays when you destroy other people's property but doesn't protect the plane. The reason for this is clear -- hull insurance has sky rocketed in the past 4-5 years.

Your #1 should deter you from buying a plane. It is a huge black hole that swallows money. If you think the plane will appreciate and you'll be able to sell it once you get your hours, its wrong. Honestly, if I could go back, I may not have bought my plane. I can afford just fine but I hate writing the checks.

I try and do the mx myself as much as legally possible, but there is finite number of tasks you can do yourself. For each hour of flight, there are 2 hours of mx. Thats what many people told me. I didnt believe them, but its true.

In the end, after I get my hours in, it will cost me around the same to have rented I'm sure.

Owning a plane is like having a kid. Lots of responsibilities. The only reason I did it is because I'm supporting my parents and sister and I can't quit my current work to CFI for < $20k/yr. My only other option was to build time by buying it.

I don't want to talk you out of it, but it is very expensive. Consider why you're buying it, how long you'll own it, etc. Also, GA aircraft, especially twins, are not very liquid. If you get hired by an airline, you won't be able to sell it overnight unless you price it very well.

Feel free to ask any other questions or PM me.

Vik

So my wife and I have been tossing around the idea of buying an airplane. Now I've heard the "If it flys, floats or fcuks its cheaper to rent" thing but...I did get married .

Anyway, those of you owners out there, I'd be looking for a 4-6 seat twin that operates relatively inexpensively and is capable of flying into known ice...since I live in the NE, I can't imagine winters would be easy to get around ice...

Just wondering if there are more plusses to it than negatives? I suppose I could end up getting my MEI if I owned a twin and just do instruction in my own plane. That could be fun to build time...and experience near death experiences in the process.

So I'm looking for advice on...well everything.
What type? How much can I look at spending? Insurance? Maintenence? Storage? Is a leaseback worth it? Anything specific I should look for? Any other advice you can give me?

Problems I'm seeing:
1. Cost - Money is something that I don't have a lot of but I could probably get a loan

2. Time - When I'm done with my Commercial Multi I'll probably have 10 ME hours. The official word is "since its only 'to proficiency' it could be one it could be ten it could be fifteen".

3. Insurance - Due to number 2, I realize its going to be tough to get insurance if I can get it at all. Also, I really know nothing about aircraft insurance.

4. Weight limitations and range - If we're going to do this, we want something that can get us and (eventuall kids) friends or family to a weekend destination (Myrtle Beach, Niagra Falls, Vegas ) with bags and minimal fuel stops. Am I asking enough?

Okay I think thats it. I know I'm probably forgetting a lot so...if you've got any good advice....

-mini

 

[Flyin Tony]

I try and do the mx myself as much as legally possible, but there is finite number of tasks you can do yourself. For each hour of flight, there are 2 hours of mx

It does sound about right even on the single Comanche. I have 150hours on it from last JAN and we just got her flying after 3 months. We did alot of the work and Its not hard. You can almost do anything yourself if you have a IA to look at everything and sign it off. I got insurance for 2500 year with NO complex 100TT NO IFR, so I dont think thats bad. I got a quote from Avemco for alittle over 4grand a year. The insurance I got on the plane is everything you can get, got it through AOPA. We bought our plane for 65K and put about 10,000-15,000 in it, And it still doesnt look like much

Alot of this info im getting from the ICS web
Your looking at 14/hr more for the twin in operating costs plus the fixed cost increase per hour over a single. So you would be looking at 120$ hour for the TwinCO
Turbo burns 18-19 GPH for about 185-190 kts. Turbos are great if you opperate out west or do alot of long high altitude flights but the non turbos are faster below 10K and a lot less finiky.
costs for the non turbo are about the same as a Bonanza. Burn 16-17 gal per hr at 165-170 kts depending on load.
Once you have 200 hrs Multi, 500hrs total and 100 in type, the prices come down significantly. Im not sure where all the break points are but I think the $2600 number is about as low as you can go.

A Pilot of a TwinCO posted this on the ICSweb

When I first got into a T/C, the old boy checking me out said something that I have remembered for many years. He said "There is no airplane out there that can do what a Twin Commanche can do. Nothing goes as fast on the same fuel burn, nothing flys as well on one engine with comperable horsepower, and the next real step in performance is to an Aerostar or an MU2, and we cant afford to fly those so lets have some fun in the T/C" I hope you find a good one and enjoy it as much as I have for many years.

I will look for some more INFO for you on the TC

 

[350DRIVER]

If you are going to purchase a light twin be prepared to spend quite a bit on mx, upkeep, insurance, hangar space, etc, etc, . If it were me I would look into some older Seneca or Baron that is in "good" condition with all logs accountable and present, they can be had at reasonable prices if you shop around and do the research. I would also look into possibly going into this with a partner (or two), better than going at it alone in my opinion. You can also offset your cost(s) (a tad) if you put it on leaseback with a flight school. Just keep in mind that if you do put it on "leaseback" then you are going to have much more wear and tear that will be noticeable over time. I have met many and have flown with a few that purchased a twin for the sole objective and purpose of building multi-engine flight time and experience to meet minimums for a job then turning around and selling it, seemed to work quite well whether I agree or disagree with this practice is another story.

It money is not at issue then go with something that you can enjoy for years to come in either a Baron or a Seneca. Just keep in mind that paying off student loans, flight school loans, and add in another one for the aircraft then throw into the mix the wages that you can expect to make for the first 3-5 years in this industry and it doesn't seem like a winning combination in my opinion nor would I want the financial burden of worrying about paying off these loans month to month. Look into buying a share or going after a partner if you are willing to do so. As with the Seneca you are familiar with you can get into it with a 1/4 share for a decent price and will be able to fly it for a fixed hourly cost. As a "share" owner the mx costs, hangar fees, upgrades, etc, are also split 4 ways versus you eating the entire thing.

One of the main problems with older and worn out twins that can be had "cheap" is that you can expect things to go wrong, not a matter of "if" but when and when it happens you may be in for a rather rude awakening if you aren't already prepared.

Whatever you choose to do make sure you get a very good pre-buy with a respected A&P who will tear the plane apart inside and out, this is probably the single most important aspect with regards to aircraft purchases. I have met many who have gotten burnt by half a$$ pre-buys done by A&P's who were sloppy.

I recently looked into going in on a C421 with a few others and putting it on a 135 until I did the math and research, was a lose lose situation that would have end up costing me much more than I was willing to spend or justify.

Just do the research and ask many questions to ensure you don't get in over your head.

good luck

3 5 0

 

[minitour]

Thanks to all for the input. I guess, honestly, I've really been looking for reasons not to buy.

As 350 pointed out, with student loans, flight school loans, and the super CFI sallaries, buying a twin isn't exactly something I wanted to do. If I need to do it, thats one thing...but I'm hoping there are other ways around it.

Hopefully 1200TT will be here sooner rather than later and I can get on with someone flying boxes at 2 am...until then, bring on the students and cross-controlled stalls!

Thanks again everyone!

-mini

 

[FracCapt]

Unless you NEED an aircraft for business(tax deductible), do NOT buy a twin! If you want a small single just to putz around in and have fun, BUILD A KITPLANE! If you buy a certified airplane.....ESPECIALLY A TWIN...you will be eaten alive by the maintenance costs! Trust me....been there, done that! If you want specifics, PM me..

 

[minitour]

FracCapt:

Seems like the general consensus is mx costs will outweight any multi time building I'll be able to do....which is good....makes my decision easy .

Oh well...perhaps I can get 100-200 ME by doing the MEI thing (I like being scared).

I just can't wait til some day I've got a ME student in the left seat and doing some simulated OEI stuff he feathers the wrong prop, hits the wrong rudder, you know...all that stuff that I hear MEI's talking about at school...sounds like fun...

OTOH:
In the next 1100TT hours, I'm sure I'll be in a twin for at least 90-190 hours (considering I'll walk out of the CMEL program with about 10 hours). Maybe it won't be such a P.I.T.A. to build the time.

Thanks again all!

-mini

 

[FN FAL]

I owned a piston twin with two other partners minitour. It was fun, it was expensive and it also proved that old axiom true..."The happiest two days in an aircraft owners life are the day he buys a plane and the day he sells the plane". That might not be how the quote goes exactly, but Pilsner Urquell is making me fat and I'm busy looking up attorneys for the civil suit.

 

[minitour]

I owned a piston twin with two other partners minitour. It was fun, it was expensive and it also proved that old axiom true..."The happiest two days in an aircraft owners life are the day he buys a plane and the day he sells the plane". That might not be how the quote goes exactly, but Pilsner Urquell is making me fat and I'm busy looking up attorneys for the civil suit.

I'm already fat....how can I get in on that action?

-mini

 

[FN FAL]

I'm already fat....how can I get in on that action?

-mini

Hahaha! Yea, let's make it a CLASS action suit! that's the ticket!

Anyway, this is the real deal...it'll give your some reading material and it will give you a better idea of costs, model changes, owner's comments, production history, airworthiness directives and on and on.

I got a copy of this in my mitts about a year after we bought our twin and every thing they said in the specific chapter on our plane was like de ja freeking vous.

http://www.aviationconsumer.com/books/

Check it out...it's money well spent, plus the reading is good. I'd get the books...you'll learn about all GA planes then. They'll e-mail or fax you the specific chapter on any plane they have done a review on, but if you are looking at several types of planes, the cost is better to get the whole thing.

One thing for sure, their reports explained to us why P-Navjo's were way cheaper than regular ones that had three times the airframe time and they definitely steered us clear of the DUKE.

 

[310]

go to www.planequest.com for info on operating cost.

Before you buy spend some time researching AD"s (Airworthiness Directives) that have repetitive inspection or repetitive work that must be complied with. Talk to a couple of A&Ps with IA (inspection authorization) about the annual inspection cost and the cost of annual AD compliance for a type of bird you are looking at.Aztecs have a lot of ADs and the Twin Comanche has some expensive airframe ADs that are repetitive.--- but you research and decide.

Talk to insurance companies in advace for cost estimates.

Call 1800 62 PLANE for financing.

Have a IA that you are going to use do a prebuy inspection on the plane you select provided the the IA does not know the seller.

Rule out lease back because of the increase in insurance rates and the increase in MX cost because of abuse by renters and instructors.

I agree with a previous post about looking at Senecas and Barons and I would add to that 310s. Stay away from poor performing twins that will not keep you off the ground on one engine. (MY 310 book SE climb is 430 ft/min- I have seen 350ft/min in SE training.)

Buy with no partner except you wife.

PM me for specifics if you like. I have owned a 310 for 10 years.

 

[IFlyGC]

Mini,

I would agree with 310 above that the 310's (especially the R model) work beautifully in all sorts of weather. I got plenty of ice time in one and never had any issues.

Have you considered buying a block of time from an FBO for a discount and then treating it like your own aircraft? I've seen places where you can get a seneca for about $140/hr when you buy just as little as 25 hours block time. That's probably a lot cheaper than ownership costs!

just a thought......

 

[icefr8dawg]

310's are awsome but the R is so damm expensive. How bout an aztec? It's a real puppy dog of a plane and handles the most ice of any piston twin i've ever flown. They seem to go for 90-120k for the most cable aztecs.