Aircraft has slid off runway at MDW

[Bumpman]

Well, Steve Cowell seems reasonalbly articulate. He's a retired pilot that "trained with SWA".

What's that mean?

It means he got his 737 type rating at SWA. I know Steve personally, not that I am proud of that fact; but he "used" to fly at my airline. I was not aware that he was retired. Learn something new every day.

 

[FN FAL]

You're trying to superimpose your televison based perception of the definition of the word homicide into something it is not. Illinois has a legal definition of the word "homicide". It would be simple to look it up.

On the crash...

I never accused the pilots of anything...a person died, the death was due to an act. If the end result is that mechanics didn't put the nut that holds the tiller wheel on the shaft properly and it came off, then the mechanic is the one that "ignored" and that "act" resulted in an unnatural death = reckless homicide.

If they find out that the plane that landed ahead of the SWA 737 sprayed skydrol all over the place causing the SWA airliner to lose control, then they got the criminal negligence problem, as whoever is responsible for that, is going to have to face the music in criminal court.

If the thrust reverser failed because of a design flaw...then the manufacturer could face criminal negligence prosecution.

What I'm telling you is, that a) a death from unnatural causes is a homocide and b) prosecutors may be compelled by law to file reckless homicide charges.

As for the feds finding the pilots 'reasonable and prudent' wtf is that? I could see it reasonable and prudent for them to want to get in on time, but if they were unstable on final and ignored that fact, there's your intent.

I would be willing to bet a paycheck that "criminal negligence" laws came about as a direct result of drunk drivers using the "I was to drunk too know what I was doing when I was plastered, so you cannot get me for intentionally killing that guy laying under my car!"

However...by ignoring what can happen when you knowingly took that first drink on the way to getting drunk, you ignored. Go back up and look at the definition from illinois state law on reckless homicide if you don't understand the "ignored" analogy.

Once again, I'm not saying the SWA crew did anything wrong. I'm just telling you that once the boy was pronounced dead, the homicide investigation begins. And just because there is an airplane involved, that does not grant any "diplomatic immunity" from prosecution to the flight crew, the people who took the MU readings, ATC, the SWA airlines as a corporation, the people that may have sullied the runway prior to SWA landed (hypothetical example), the people that maintained the plane, the people that designed the plane.

 

[FN FAL]

I didn't realize how many FI-ers had law degrees, and specialized in criminal defense....



To prosecute for a criminal violation, two things must exist

MENS REA - the mental state of the violator and his intention

ACTUS REAS - the actual action itself

BOTH must exist for a prosecution (or should I say a successful prosecution)

Example

Joe, aware that his car has an exhaust leak, asks his ex-girlfriend to go with him to the store. He enters the store and tells her to stay inside, knowing she will be dead in 15 minutes. She dies and Joe gets prosecuted, because he has intent (he wanted to kill her) and he completed the action (he physically got her into the car and told her to remain in the car). Joe would not have been prosecuted if one of these elements did not exist.

Larry, is headed to the store in his beat up jalopy, his only car available, and his baby needs formula, so he has no choice. His neighbor, Cindy, would like to go the store and she joins him. Upon arrival, Cindy asks him to buy some milk and she will stay in the car and listen to her song on the radio. Unfortunately, an exhaust leak kills Cindy. Larry is not prosecuted since no intent exists nor criminal action to carry out the intent.

I am 105% sure the flight crew did not intend to kill anybody, and the "action" itself was an accident and not of an intended proactive effort to carry out criminal action.

end of story

Civil lawsuits are an entire different animal as is FAA penalties and fines

But there is nothing criminal here

IL homicide definition

http://www.ilga.gov/legislation/ilcs/ilcs4.asp?DocName=072000050HArt%2E+9&ActID=1876&ChapAct=720%26nbsp%3BILCS%26nbsp%3B5%2F&ChapterID=53&ChapterName=CRIMINAL+OFFENSES&SectionID=29493&SeqStart=10800&SeqEnd=11700&ActName=Criminal+Code+of+1961%2E

Sat pak, you are wrong, you don't need intent for either the involuntary manslaughter or wreckless homicide found in 720 ILCS 5/9-3...Involuntary means you didn't intend for something to happen...

INVOLUNTARY MANSLAUGHTER AND RECKLESS HOMICIDE​

(unintentional or reckless act resulting in death)720 ILCS 5/9-3

Involuntary Manslaughter and Reckless Homicide.


(a) A person who unintentionally kills an individual without lawful justification commits involuntary manslaughter if his acts whether lawful or unlawful which cause the death are such as are likely to cause death or great bodily harm to some individual, and he performs them recklessly, except in cases in which the cause of the death consists of the driving of a motor vehicle or operating a snowmobile, all‑terrain vehicle, or watercraft, in which case the person commits reckless homicide.

The punishment is the same for involuntary manslaughter as reckless homicide, in fact if you read some of the state court cases, you'll see where the judges consider them the same for the purposes of "double jeopardy".

 

[Guitar rocker]

You're 100% correct. Trans States threatens with the "death penalty".

Does Hulas still run the show over there? I would love to buy him a nice big 20 oz. steak. That place was something else.

 

[jumppilot03]

Just to continue with the illinformed media. Apparently the NTSB is also misinformed. On CNN the NTSB spokesperson stated that they are looking at the Cockpit Video Recorder. I guess I must have missed the memo as to when ALPA agreed to having video recorders in the cockpit.


I am on reserve and have not worked in 2 weeks. Boredom has definintly kicked in.

 

[atrdriver]

INVOLUNTARY MANSLAUGHTER AND RECKLESS HOMICIDE​

(unintentional or reckless act resulting in death)720 ILCS 5/9-3

Involuntary Manslaughter and Reckless Homicide.


(a) A person who unintentionally kills an individual without lawful justification commits involuntary manslaughter if his acts whether lawful or unlawful which cause the death are such as are likely to cause death or great bodily harm to some individual, and he performs them recklessly, except in cases in which the cause of the death consists of the driving of a motor vehicle or operating a snowmobile, all‑terrain vehicle, or watercraft, in which case the person commits reckless homicide.

The punishment is the same for involuntary manslaughter as reckless homicide, in fact if you read some of the state court cases, you'll see where the judges consider them the same for the purposes of "double jeopardy".

But your definition states clearly that the act must be performed recklessly. If it is shown that they flew a normal stabilized approach, and followed the procedures that a reasonable and prudent pilot would follow, then they don't ahve anything to worry about. You are correct that if they were reckless or negligent in some way then they may in fact have something to worry about. Either way, the data will come from the NTSB in the form of CVR and FDR, and a prosecutor would be a fool to try to start anything before that data is available.

 

[ATR-DRIVR]

Just to continue with the illinformed media. Apparently the NTSB is also misinformed. On CNN the NTSB spokesperson stated that they are looking at the Cockpit Video Recorder. I guess I must have missed the memo as to when ALPA agreed to having video recorders in the cockpit.


I am on reserve and have not worked in 2 weeks. Boredom has definintly kicked in.

Not being picky here, but SWA is not ALPA, they have their own in-house union. I have not seen anything in print or otherwise having video cameras in the front.

 

[satpak77]

Sat pak, you are wrong, you don't need intent for either the involuntary manslaughter or wreckless homicide found in 720 ILCS 5/9-3...Involuntary means you didn't intend for something to happen...

INVOLUNTARY MANSLAUGHTER AND RECKLESS HOMICIDE​

(unintentional or reckless act resulting in death)720 ILCS 5/9-3

Involuntary Manslaughter and Reckless Homicide.


(a) A person who unintentionally kills an individual without lawful justification commits involuntary manslaughter if his acts whether lawful or unlawful which cause the death are such as are likely to cause death or great bodily harm to some individual, and he performs them recklessly, except in cases in which the cause of the death consists of the driving of a motor vehicle or operating a snowmobile, all‑terrain vehicle, or watercraft, in which case the person commits reckless homicide.

The punishment is the same for involuntary manslaughter as reckless homicide, in fact if you read some of the state court cases, you'll see where the judges consider them the same for the purposes of "double jeopardy".

actually, I am right. The term "homicide" was asked about, not reckless homicide nor involuntary manslaughter nor anything else

 

[Makesheepnervus]

Just out of curiosity I ran the Landing distance numbers on the computer program I use for the Gulfstream II that I fly. The factored wet runway distances came out as follows:

Runway 31C = 5,938ft (5,826 available)
Runway 13C = 5,123ft (6,060 available)
Runway 4R = 5,123ft (5,928 available)

Obviously the numbers for a boeing 737 would be different but it is interesting to see the effect that a "light" tailwind component vs a light headwind component can have on the distances. (815ft in this case)

 

[LarryinTN]

NTSB says touchdown was at 132 knots which sounds pretty reasonable. That would be about right in the DC9s that I fly. Tailwind was 7 to 8 knots. The braking action was reported as fair for most of the runway, poor for the far end. I'm guessing that it was something like fair for the first two-thirds, poor for the last one-third unless it was given based on taxiway intersections. The report wasn't specific.