Air Wisconsin, we hardly knew ye

[AFELLOWAVIATOR]

If DAL went into chapter 11 and got all contracts voided, then put out an RFP for 777, 767, md88, 737 flying, I wonder what LPA Nat. would have to say.


They would be screaming . ALPA is as worthless to Regional pilots as tits on a bore hog. I for one would like to see a movement away from alpa.

 

[rptrain]

Who seemed to start this whole mess? Who was the first regional to "go for growth for OBVIOUS less pay?" Everyone will probably say Mesa, but I don't think they really had a choice. I think it was Skywest, who voted without ALPA pressure to fly bigger than 50 seaters for 50 seat rates. Don't blame ALPA, they had nothing to do with that.......

Ah-ha, but they did! DAL and UAL ALPA could have had scope that prevented code sharing with non-union partners. Nice try though, General.

Better yet, ALPA could have never let the code-share cat out of the bag to begin with. OK, my hindsight is 20/10, but that's the way I see it now. I think it's time to start putting the toothpaste back in the tube. It'll be messy and it won't all get back in, but at least we'll have learned our lesson.

 

[JohnDoe]

Somebody else said ( can't remember if it was this thread or another ) that the union is only as strong as its membership.

If certain parts of the membership are willing to work for a certain amount of money, what do you expect the union to do for you?? Don't want lower pay, don't approve your next contract or concessionary TA. If you feel you "have to" then you have made a choice.

I'm tired of seeing this typical lazy American sense of "entitlement" coupled with "its everybody else's fault but mine."

Exactly what do you expect the union to do with regards to the low pay people are WILLING to work for?? Go to all the regional managements and decree "thou shalt not pay any less than $xxxxx for any pilot position"?? You know darn well that won't work in our capitalist society. There will always be a hole for management to squeak through (if nothing else, chap. 11), and since there is always somebody willing to work for less (who may not be Alpa) they will always have another source of labor.

General brings up a good example. Skywest has shown that people are willing to forgo pay in exchange for "growth." Stop expecting other people to protect you from yourself.

 

[General Lee]

rptrain,


Dalpa could have had scope language preventing code sharing with non-union carriers? We had that for code shares with other majors---and we allowed the DL codeshare with CO and NW after our MEC approved it. As far as who the company wants to feed out DCI contracts with, that is up to the company, and even Comair lacked that type of language in their contract talks. Those guys forgot all about their own scope and went for the money. Then they blame national ALPA.

Skywest voluntarily went for growth, and allowed 50 seat rates on ANYTHING up to 99 seats. ALPA didn't have anything to do with that, so don't blame them. That started the ball rolling. Sad but true. And, don't blame us at Dalpa, we set the bar the highest it has ever been and then kept it there the longest. Our huge pay cut deal now isn't due to us necessarily, but over borrowing and the selling of the fuel hedges. We now have to go lower to try to stay around, but we did not sell out.


Bye Bye--General Lee

 

[rptrain]

Exactly what do you expect the union to do with regards to the low pay people are WILLING to work for?? Go to all the regional managements and decree "thou shalt not pay any less than $xxxxx for any pilot position"?? You know darn well that won't work in our capitalist society.

Uh, that's exactly what my CBA does, but I can't speak for yours. In the "Compensation" section it says "thou shalt not pay any less than $23.17/hr for any pilot position." Who'da thunkit, in our capitalist society?

I'll tell you what else it says: "thou shalt not have any other pilots before thine on the system seniority list." No IFs, ANDs, or BUTs. No codesharing, no block hour ratios, no arbitrary determinations based on weight or seating capacity. If it flies, we fly it. Therefore, I don't buy the argument that the union cannot defend against whipsawing. But it has to start from the top.

What puzzles me most is that you don't sound like much of a unionist with comments like, "I'm tired of seeing this typical lazy American sense of 'entitlement' coupled with 'its everybody else's fault but mine.'" If that's how you feel then why defend ALPA?

I believe in the union, but I also believe we can (and must) do better.

 

[Mel Sharples]

General Lee and JohnDoe:


When is the last time you heard a pilot at Delta or NWA say ALPA national wasn't representing their best interests?

'Nuff said.

John, the whole point of HAVING a national union is to pull in all of the LEC's. Otherwise, WHAT IS THE POINT??? ALPA national has the ability to tell people, "Look, run plays out of our playbook ONLY or go pound sand." Gee... funny they do that for majors but not for their regional BROTHERS. No matter what you say, it is supposed to be OUR union too. Funny Mr. Worth-less seems to have forgot that regional guys are also paying his $400,000 salary.

And John, your continued "let them eat cake" attitude was old last week. Go play in the "Majors" board. Obviously us little regional pukes here aren't cool enough to go there, as we are all the product of our own greed and stupidity.




.

 

[rptrain]

General,

As I said before, it's hindsight, and I'm not blaming anyone for not seeing it coming.

IMHO, you guys never should have allowed the creation of DCI with its "portfolio" of union and non-union carriers. The reason you let it happen is because that type of flying was considered "undesireable" and you didn't much care who took it. Unfortunately, ALPA never changed course from the old days (even you refer to your "commuter" days) when the codeshares were 19 and 29 seat airplanes operated under 135. 50-seat turbojet equipment still wasn't good enough to be considered "mainline." That, to this day, I find shocking.

You can't tell me DALPA has no control over who gets DCI flying. As much as it pains the RJDC to hear it, you guys are the Alpha of DAL flying. Your scope section specifically allows it, just like the NW/CO codeshare. The only difference is that DALPA doesn't care about setting standards for who flies DCI.

Now, instead of creating tighter restrictions on DCI flying (or, God forbid, even trying to get that flying back) you guys are having a fire sale. Granting more aircraft for DCI with no stipulations on who may fly them (other than jobs for furloughees). Without a change in philosophy, things are going to get much worse for everyone.

 

[Axel]

Who seemed to start this whole mess?

The reason you let it happen is because that type of flying was considered "undesireable" and you didn't much care who took it.

That about sums it up.

 

[General Lee]

Axel,


What? We didn't desire to fly routes from DFW to DCA, JFK, OAK, ONT, SNA, FLL, PBI, etc? We wanted to give up those routes? What are you smoking? The reason we had to give up those routes is because we were shifting airplanes around to try to combat Jetblue. We moved 36 mainline 757s to Song, and then had to move other airplanes to cover those replacements. The company, not ALPA, was short sighted and didn't get more aircraft to cover those routes. I couldn't believe they were throwing 70 seat RJs on those super long routes, and guess what? It failed. That wasn't ALPA's fault again.


Bye Bye--General Lee

 

[Axel]

You have to go back to the origin

...to the time this crop was planted.

Mainlines didn't want anything that didn't have "Boeing," "Douglas," and later "Airbus" stamped on it.

Give the puddle jumpers to the little kids to fly, we don't want them. From the fertile ground sprang the so-called "regionals." Had the big kids wanted to play with the little kids' toys, they would all be on the mainline property and the scum sucking, bottom feeding, bar lowering b-scalers such as Comair, ASA, ALG, PDT, SKW, CHQ, etc, etc, WOULD NEVER HAVE EVEN EXISTED.

Yup, you big kids scored a major victory, there. Your stand on the segregation of real pilots from commuter pilots created the feeding frenzy (or whipsaw, the terms are interchangeable) that threatens everyone's way of life and sits like an anvil on the so-called bar. You have to go way back; way, way back- back to when Metroliners were still new and Jetstreams were not yet on the drawing board and follow the consistent refusal of the mainlines to allow little airplanes in.

Well there was a market and it should come as no surprise to anyone that companies sprang up who were willing to fill the need. This monster is of your creation and now it is out of your, and everyone on the labor side of the table's control. Now you lament the results: everyone, including the mainlines are fighting like starved jackals amongst each other and amongst themselves when the very work groups who are fighting with each other and with you are the product of your own disdain for the work you now covet.

This isn't about competition with Jet Blue, it's about reaping the fruits of segregationist mindsets that date back to before many of the JB pilots were even born. The foundation for today's airline world were laid back when commuters were emerging from the primordial ooze of navajos and cessna 402's. Had the mainlines had a little more forethought and a little less pride, none of this bitter harvest, NONE, would have ever had the chance to be conceived, much less harvested.

 

[On Your Six]

I agree with the General. Don't blame the DAL pilots for allowing CR7s to fly between DFW and SNA or DCA - there was no choice because of the shift of aircraft for Song. It's too easy to blame the DAL mainliners for doing this or doing that - but in reality Dalpa has been reactionary since 9/11 because of the reallocation of resources and furlough situation.

Unfortunately, Delta HAD to consider non-union and cheaper lift after 9/11 because of both the deteriorating economic environment AND the emergence of the LCCs. Delta has been sliding downward since 9/11 and Dalpa has not had much control as a result... It's too easy to blame the Delta mainliners for everything...

 

[Axel]

And it's not just Delta

Don't blame the DAL pilots for allowing CR7s to fly between DFW and SNA or DCA...

...Unfortunately, Delta HAD to consider non-union and cheaper lift after 9/11 because of both the deteriorating economic environment AND the emergence of the LCCs. Delta has been sliding downward since 9/11 and Dalpa has not had much control as a result... It's too easy to blame the Delta mainliners for everything...

It's not 9/11 either. The cheaper non-union lift would not have existed had the CR7's been mainline aircraft flown by mainline crews. That fact pre-dates 9/11 by 20 years and was most certainly under the control of DALPA at the time.

 

[HawkI]

While the race to the bottom argument can go on forever....

I think the major issue here is, the artificial leverage to supply and demand that the bancruptcy court has over venders. AWAC made a commitment to fly for United voluntarily with a long term, bancruptcy court approved, contract. Now the court is going to allow them to reneg. That is fine...but what if AWAC said "Screw You!!" and parked every airplane tommorro. There would be a court ordered injunction forcing us to fly.....at least until our competitors can replace us. Management can't negotiate with Big U when their in bancrupcy. So much for CAPITAISM.

$hit or get off the pot!! Exit bancrupcy or chapter 7!!

 

[JohnDoe]

quote from rptrain:
"Uh, that's exactly what my CBA does, but I can't speak for yours. In the "Compensation" section it says "thou shalt not pay any less than $23.17/hr for any pilot position." Who'da thunkit, in our capitalist society?"

What I was referring to is this attitude being displayed that Alpa can stop the whipsaw by preventing the "underbidders" out there from "underbidding" other people's contracts. The only way for that to happen is for them to say to EVERYBODY involved that this is the "floor" for compensation, or to establish the same rates for everybody. That is what won't work. How else will the perceived "whipsaw" between regionals be prevented? Yes, yes, you and everybody else out there obviously have your own contract, but it appears that that is the problem. Certain groups have their own contract that pays less than others involved. To think that Alpa can come out and demand that everybody has the same level to prevent the whipsawing is absurd.

quote:
"What puzzles me most is that you don't sound like much of a unionist with comments like, "I'm tired of seeing this typical lazy American sense of 'entitlement' coupled with 'its everybody else's fault but mine.'" If that's how you feel then why defend ALPA?"

I'm not defending Alpa as much as I am calling out statements or attitudes I have a problem with. Especially this notion that a decision by United management to put some of their feeder service out for a bid and reduce their cost is the fault of Alpa. That makes no sense to me.


quote from Mel:
"And John, your continued "let them eat cake" attitude was old last week. Go play in the "Majors" board. Obviously us little regional pukes here aren't cool enough to go there, as we are all the product of our own greed and stupidity."

I see.....so because you don't like my point of view I should just "go away" eh?? I expected more from you than some cop-out like that.



Rptrain, why exactly do you (and others) feel it is Alpa's fault that United management decided to put a bid out for their flying?? If it is this perceived "whipsaw", then exactly how is it to be stopped?? How can Alpa say that one alpa represented regional can or can't do certain flying vs another alpa represented regional. Lets get some specific resolutions as to what can be done here.......I see alot of talk about what happened in the past, lets see these brilliant solutions.

And none of this mainline vs regional. This specific case is one regional potentialy losing their flying to another regional doing it for less.

 

[JohnDoe]

quote:
"$hit or get off the pot!! Exit bancrupcy or chapter 7!!"


I definately agree with that one......