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Air Mekong interview via Skype

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d328pilot said:
And don't forget that if you want to work for FedEx or UPS, they require that you have lived in the US for the prior 5 years I believe due to their security requirements.

If I am wrong, and I might be, I am sure someone will be along shortly to correct me.
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You had me at Fedex.
 
bob_sakamano said:
I had to walk away from this thread in pure frustration. Trying to share some insight based on ACTUAL experience only to hear people attempt to justify an all around poor decision was starting to piss me off.

The facts are basic: It is not glamorous being an ex-pat. It is much harder than any domestic flying job. There are many reasons the pay is higher (except for this outstanding gig) which have been covered ad-nauseum. You are not liked by the local nationals. Now you will not be liked by fellow ex-pats (other than your fellow Top Gunners). There is no protection for you. ASA (Don't even factor MeJet) does not care about you and will not come to your defense there. You are just making them a disgusting profit by foaming at the mouth to work on a glamorous overseas contract. You will go through many statges of which loathing your job, the place you are and the people you are around will be the final and longest lasting. You will be homesick. Living in a crashpad with other guys is not an acceptable lifestyle when you work overseas. Accepting this before the fact like many have on this thread is immature and defeatist all at the same time. You will not live as cheaply as you think you can. You will drink more, spend more and do out of character things in an attempt to make yourself and the situation feel normal. You will work more hours than you think. You will be coerced. You will probably be a crime victim at some point. You will get sick (hopefully just random stomach maladies and not tropical diseases such as Malaria). You will be frustrated by lack of standardization at the airline and with ATC. RVSM doesn't mean crap when you have a Russian cargo plane coming at you on the same airway with no transponder and a bad altimeter.

I could go on, but it won't do any good. There are some immature, naive fools that are "in it to win it" for themselves and just don't get it. This is the beginning of the end of fairly compensated overseas contract jobs. Don't think that Emirates, Etihad, Qatar, KAL, ANA and the rest aren't looking for ways to cut costs. This MeJet contract just might be the straw that breaks the camel's back by opening the floodgates for the new substandard for overseas jobs.

One thing you will learn: How to cooperate...or you will be coming home. Where is you ASA job going to be if you get fired by MeJet for any number of reasons? I've seen countless guys get fired for totally random things. It doesn't take gross miscondut to get fired. Good luck getting your final pay too.

The money isn't as good as it sounds. You must bepaid accordingly for the sacrifices you aren't aware that you're going to make.

Ok. Now back to the regularly scheduled program of trashing the negative attitude of stupid expats.
Click to expand...

You are completely right. If they think the mean streets of Auburn, Daytona Beach, or down town ATL were hell wait until they arrive at a 3rd world country and actually be expected to live and work there under a contract. At least in downtown ATL you know why you were shanked.
 
Oh yeah, one last thing.

When you are a contract pilot, the airline will hold you to every letter of the contract. They, however, will interperate everything in their favor. Oh by the way, if you're not happy about the outcome, take them to court. Unfortunately, it will be in the jurisdiction of the company's locale. Good luck with getting time off from ASA to go to VietNam for your day in court.

Just another of the many reasons why contract pay seems to be so high.
 
All good points against accepting this contract but the major issue is that they (ASA) will go into a market with high enough yields that supports payment of 120 to 140K a year for a CRJ captain and still make a significant profit. You guys are accepting 80K in the same market to fly the same equipment, that alone should have prompted a "Call us back when you have a serious offer" from you guys. If you guys are so willing to accept 80 to fly a CRJ what's next? 100 to fly a 767?
 
Well, I'm signing off for good from this thread as well.

You can split hairs, argue semantics ALL day long, but capitalism/feeding my family/my superiors ordered me to do it have all been used in the past.

But, the bottom line is: You ARE undercutting wages for the same job and helping lower the bar, just as many have done in this profession.

But hey, don't listen to those guys trying to warn you or those of us asking that you think of consequences. Welcome to the self-entitlement generation!

I'm done.....
 
COOPERVANE said:
Well, I'm signing off for good from this thread as well.

You can split hairs, argue semantics ALL day long, but capitalism/feeding my family/my superiors ordered me to do it have all been used in the past.

But, the bottom line is: You ARE undercutting wages for the same job and helping lower the bar, just as many have done in this profession.

But hey, don't listen to those guys trying to warn you or those of us asking that you think of consequences. Welcome to the self-entitlement generation!

I'm done.....
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Maybe so, but trying to resist market forces by whining won't get you anywhere. Go tell all the people who are selling their houses too cheap that they are devaluing your house. See what that gets you.
 
This thread has been full of logical arguments. Your replies are full of irrational justifications.

The fact is this contract is far below standard. You just justify it with "that's what the market will take."

Can you name any market that is truly a "free market"?

Those of us who are upset about this would like to see the ASA guys try to get more. From my understanding, this has been their first offer. And while they guys there think they are getting a decent package (because they will be able to save money), they are in reality getting a crappy deal.

It's not a dig on them. They have no experience in the contract world and have nothing to compare it to. They also don't have any idea what will be waiting for them as an expat. I am willing to be most of these guys have never even been to Vietnam, or SE Asia before.

This is why those of us on this board who do have experience in the contract world are trying to tell them that they are ACCEPTING A PACKAGE THAT IS BELOW THE GOING MARKET RATE. They really don't know what their skills are worth on the contract market and if no one accepts this job, I am willing to bet the terms would go higher.

Just because you don't agree with something doesn't make it illogical. But then again, today everyone is an expert on everything......
 
I don't know all that much about expat contract flying. But I do know that if interviews being conducted via Skype isn't a massive red flag I don't know what would be.
 
Redan said:
I don't know all that much about expat contract flying. But I do know that if interviews being conducted via Skype isn't a massive red flag I don't know what would be.
Click to expand...

Skype is actually not a bad idea. You can interview in your underwear. Plus better to hear the BS over the internet rather than traveling 5000 miles to be in person.
 
d328pilot said:
This thread has been full of logical arguments. Your replies are full of irrational justifications.

The fact is this contract is far below standard. You just justify it with "that's what the market will take."

Can you name any market that is truly a "free market"?

Those of us who are upset about this would like to see the ASA guys try to get more. From my understanding, this has been their first offer. And while they guys there think they are getting a decent package (because they will be able to save money), they are in reality getting a crappy deal.

It's not a dig on them. They have no experience in the contract world and have nothing to compare it to. They also don't have any idea what will be waiting for them as an expat. I am willing to be most of these guys have never even been to Vietnam, or SE Asia before.

This is why those of us on this board who do have experience in the contract world are trying to tell them that they are ACCEPTING A PACKAGE THAT IS BELOW THE GOING MARKET RATE. They really don't know what their skills are worth on the contract market and if no one accepts this job, I am willing to bet the terms would go higher.

Just because you don't agree with something doesn't make it illogical. But then again, today everyone is an expert on everything......
Click to expand...

I don't care if it is above or below average. My only point is that the company can float whatever agreement they want, and if it is too low, no one will take it. Since people are clearly interested, and are willing to take it, the market (in this case, ASA pilots), can bear the offer.

I agree it is less than other offers, which is the main reason I didn't apply. Not because I didn't want to "lower the bar," but because it didn't make financial/career sense for me to go.

You just can't fault guys for looking at their finances, looking at their situation, and making a decision that is right for them. A lot of you people really really like to tell other people what they should and shouldn't do, and that is what I have a problem with. Taking a job, quitting a job, moving across the world, etc., those are all personal decisions for the individual, and they darn sure don't have to answer to anyone on this board.
 
ASA_Aviator said:
The job market and the housing market are...markets. It is 100% relevant.
Click to expand...

Not only is it completely irrelevant but it is a clear indication that you have no idea what you are talking about, it is precisely because of the market conditions that we are telling you that this contract T&C's are way substandard, the S.E. ASIA MARKET. You can't compare the market here in the U.S. nor use it as any sort of reference because the business model that ASA is after with this venture is nothing like the business model that they have in the U.S. This regional carriers in S.E. Asia operate in a high yields market and they are profitable as stand alone organizations and not as part of a "brand" like here in the U.S. where they are just fee for departure and not really responsible for ticket sales and reservations, In the U.S. the brand doesn't really make money from the regionals as stand alone business ventures but rather as part of the feeding network into their hub and spoke system. That is NOT the way that this business venture in Vietnam will work for ASA, they will operate in a market that is not saturated and where the ticket prices will bring a revenue stream that supports salaries 40% higher than what you guys were so willing to say yes to. I want you guys to understand that ASA needs you for this venture a lot more than you need them, YOU have the upper hand here and not the other way around. Another aspect is that ASA is not limited with this venture by any sort of scope and that the operation of larger A/C's in the pacific rim and within S.E. Asia is within their grasp. This is where all of us contract pilots are very much against this T&C's because if you are willing to undercut by 40% at the regional level, would you be willing to do it at the wide body level? where does this lead to? this is a troubling trend of the degradation of salary conditions that we have experienced in the U.S. to spread like a cancer across the last frontier of higher salaries for pilots.

You just can't fault guys for looking at their finances, looking at their situation, and making a decision that is right for them. A lot of you people really really like to tell other people what they should and shouldn't do, and that is what I have a problem with. Taking a job, quitting a job, moving across the world, etc., those are all personal decisions for the individual, and they darn sure don't have to answer to anyone on this board.
Click to expand...

Nobody is blaming them for that, are you kidding? I think that after going on three decades in this crappy business I know what is like to be without a job so please could you not try to lecture people who have been doing this a LOT longer than you about the difficult decision that in this business have to be made. It comes down to selling your services for the right price, the price that goes with the market and what the company will be VERY willing to pay. Why sell it for $5 when the company will pay $8? and still make money
 
Last edited:
ASA_Aviator said:
You just can't fault guys for looking at their finances, looking at their situation, and making a decision that is right for them. A lot of you people really really like to tell other people what they should and shouldn't do, and that is what I have a problem with. Taking a job, quitting a job, moving across the world, etc., those are all personal decisions for the individual, and they darn sure don't have to answer to anyone on this board.
Click to expand...

Me me me. This pretty much sums up what is wrong with the world. Their decisions will affect other people and greatly affect them if they want to fly in the contract world in the future. They should at least take that into consideration. The short term gain could hamper their long term earning potential.
 
Some pilots have crossed picket lines using the justification "I have to do it for my family" or "I have to do what is right for me". You are the same type.

I guess we all know what you would do if ASA went on strike.

You don't belong in this business, and I'm embarassed that you work for ASA.
 
COOPERVANE said:
Some pilots have crossed picket lines using the justification "I have to do it for my family" or "I have to do what is right for me". You are the same type.

I guess we all know what you would do if ASA went on strike.

You don't belong in this business, and I'm embarassed that you work for ASA.
Click to expand...

Since you don't seem to have figured it out yet, ASA AVIATOR is clearly in management. Quite possibly he even may be your System Chief Pilot. Just thought I'd throw that out there so you can frame his comments appropriately.
 
BOX OFFICE said:
Since you don't seem to have figured it out yet, ASA AVIATOR is clearly in management. Quite possibly he even may be your System Chief Pilot. Just thought I'd throw that out there so you can frame his comments appropriately.
Click to expand...

That would definitely make sense.
 
COOPERVANE said:
Some pilots have crossed picket lines using the justification "I have to do it for my family" or "I have to do what is right for me". You are the same type.

I guess we all know what you would do if ASA went on strike.

You don't belong in this business, and I'm embarassed that you work for ASA.
Click to expand...

Actually, I would NEVER cross a picket line.

But, I would choose a job based on my goals and needs, not the needs of people who shouldn't be factored into my decision. That's just common sense man.
 
Dumb Pilot said:
Not only is it completely irrelevant but it is a clear indication that you have no idea what you are talking about, it is precisely because of the market conditions that we are telling you that this contract T&C's are way substandard, the S.E. ASIA MARKET. You can't compare the market here in the U.S. nor use it as any sort of reference because the business model that ASA is after with this venture is nothing like the business model that they have in the U.S. This regional carriers in S.E. Asia operate in a high yields market and they are profitable as stand alone organizations and not as part of a "brand" like here in the U.S. where they are just fee for departure and not really responsible for ticket sales and reservations, In the U.S. the brand doesn't really make money from the regionals as stand alone business ventures but rather as part of the feeding network into their hub and spoke system. That is NOT the way that this business venture in Vietnam will work for ASA, they will operate in a market that is not saturated and where the ticket prices will bring a revenue stream that supports salaries 40% higher than what you guys were so willing to say yes to. I want you guys to understand that ASA needs you for this venture a lot more than you need them, YOU have the upper hand here and not the other way around. Another aspect is that ASA is not limited with this venture by any sort of scope and that the operation of larger A/C's in the pacific rim and within S.E. Asia is within their grasp. This is where all of us contract pilots are very much against this T&C's because if you are willing to undercut by 40% at the regional level, would you be willing to do it at the wide body level? where does this lead to? this is a troubling trend of the degradation of salary conditions that we have experienced in the U.S. to spread like a cancer across the last frontier of higher salaries for pilots.



Nobody is blaming them for that, are you kidding? I think that after going on three decades in this crappy business I know what is like to be without a job so please could you not try to lecture people who have been doing this a LOT longer than you about the difficult decision that in this business have to be made. It comes down to selling your services for the right price, the price that goes with the market and what the company will be VERY willing to pay. Why sell it for $5 when the company will pay $8? and still make money
Click to expand...

The market is the ASA pilot group, since they are the one the jobs have been offered to. If the company offers X contract, and people take it, then it was an okay offer.

Let me ask you this, what is your car worth?

It is worth whatever you can get someone to pay for it.

Well, the company can get someone to take the job for X amount. If the offer weren't enough, they would have to ante up more to get more interest.


Again, I understand what you are saying. If everyone colluded together they could attempt to force more money for everything. Houses, cars, pay rates, etc.

Anyway, I'm done. You guys can btch and moan about it to your heart's content, but the 40 slots will be filled at the current pay rates.
 
BOX OFFICE said:
Since you don't seem to have figured it out yet, ASA AVIATOR is clearly in management. Quite possibly he even may be your System Chief Pilot. Just thought I'd throw that out there so you can frame his comments appropriately.
Click to expand...

Probably just some dude trying to justify the huge decision he just signed on the dotted line for.
 
ASA_Aviator said:
The market is the ASA pilot group, since they are the one the jobs have been offered to. If the company offers X contract, and people take it, then it was an okay offer.

Let me ask you this, what is your car worth?

It is worth whatever you can get someone to pay for it.

Well, the company can get someone to take the job for X amount. If the offer weren't enough, they would have to ante up more to get more interest.


Again, I understand what you are saying. If everyone colluded together they could attempt to force more money for everything. Houses, cars, pay rates, etc.

Anyway, I'm done. You guys can btch and moan about it to your heart's content, but the 40 slots will be filled at the current pay rates.
Click to expand...

They came to such conclusion due to lack of information, what you call "bitchin" is really giving a perspective from someone who is actually doing contract work abroad and that understands the business model differences between the way the airline industry works in other parts of the world and the way it works back home, the trend of erosion of salary and conditions that has been experienced in the U.S. has to be eliminated at home and not promoted abroad with the excuse that the market perception is subjective, that is a ridiculous notion. A car is worth the blue book value, not what you think your car is worth and in the same token pilot salary on a particular equipment is what is been paid in the region to fly that A/C and not what uninformed pilots accept without having all the facts. Now that you have accepted that you understand my point, allow us to keep informing with facts and figures because doing nothing is allowing this cancer to keep growing. I believe that American pilots are some of the best pilots in the world and the fact that we have become "cheap exported labor" is something that we should feel ashamed of and I will keep talking against it.
 
LazyLightnin' said:
Probably just some dude trying to justify the huge decision he just signed on the dotted line for.
Click to expand...
The true "buyers remorse" will come when he looks into the street and sees cockroaches the size of VWs and needs a VD clinic and cannot read the street signs squiggly writing.
PBR
 
Thanks for the different perspectives everyone. I am not going to Vietnam.
It doesnt matter now (to me) but ASA Aviator is correct in his/her illustrations of how markets behave. Something is worth what it is bought/sold for, not what a magical "blue book" says or any other publication. That is why NADA, Kelley, Edmunds or any other ESTIMATOR of market conditions gives multiple price ranges.
The same is true of a housing market, job market, or any other market.
I think you guys have been arguing in cirlcles because ASA AVIATOR is talking about how the world is and the rest of you are talking about how you wish it was. Believe me, I wish with you, and that's why I won't take the contract. But you guys have been wrong about a lot of things on this thread.
 

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