Air Force to UAL New Hire

[ROSWELL41]

So true but now the DAL new hires look like the new hires at UAL 15 years ago. You have to look at FedEx now for dumb accidents caused by MilOnly pilots.

What exactly do they look like? Care to elaborate?

 

[Dan Roman]

Wasn't the L-1011 crash in 1988. Weren't most of the former military guys Vietnam era? Weren't most of the Vietnam era fighters/strike aircraft two seat? (F-4, F-111, A-6, F-14, F-100D, F-105).

The push for CRM was due not to single seat guys, but the "Captain is God" system the arilines had set up dating back to the days of Pan Am Clippers. The landmark United DC-8 accident and the KLM/Pan Am 747 collision triggered CRM training throughout the industry. Both found copilots unwilling to speak up because of the "Skygod" culture.

The story may be true but the analysis isn't there. Hiring all the military transport or civilian pilots in the world wouldn't have changed a culture that purposefully mimiced ocean travel, and had been around since the 1920's.

You are spot on that CRM came about due to the "Skygod" culture endemic in the airline industry. But it is a fact that DAL was found lacking in CRM and the FAA did lay blame on the fact that they had hired so many pilots with a single pilot background. (BTW F4 F111 etc you mentioned is still a single pilot operation)

 

[bluesideup1]

I was part of American Eagle when the AA pilots started furloughing. We had a flow back agreement with AA that stated AE would take and put the AA pilots in the left seat as they flowed back. Unfortunately AA had hired right up until the furlough and they had plenty of 1,500 hour single seat fighter pilots that had been at AA less than 6 months. Now given time most of those fighter jocks will learn the ropes and become productive Airline pilots. That was not the case when they were being sent back into the Captains position at Eagle though. It didn't take the FAA or the poor F.O. long to realize that the fighter guys had almost no transitional experience to flying Passengers aircraft in a crew environment. There was problems with WX as none of those guys have ever really dealt with WX, Deicing, crowded terminal environments, CRM, ect. The FAA removed all of those low time fighter pilots from their captain positions and made them get at least 3,000 hours before they would allow them to become P.I.C. again. I guess they just weren't too impressed with all those Night vision low altitude bombing runs after all.

 

[Turtle21]

I was part of American Eagle when the AA pilots started furloughing. We had a flow back agreement with AA that stated AE would take and put the AA pilots in the left seat as they flowed back. Unfortunately AA had hired right up until the furlough and they had plenty of 1,500 hour single seat fighter pilots that had been at AA less than 6 months. Now given time most of those fighter jocks will learn the ropes and become productive Airline pilots. That was not the case when they were being sent back into the Captains position at Eagle though. It didn't take the FAA or the poor F.O. long to realize that the fighter guys had almost no transitional experience to flying Passengers aircraft in a crew environment. There was problems with WX as none of those guys have ever really dealt with WX, Deicing, crowded terminal environments, CRM, ect. The FAA removed all of those low time fighter pilots from their captain positions and made them get at least 3,000 hours before they would allow them to become P.I.C. again. I guess they just weren't too impressed with all those Night vision low altitude bombing runs after all.

You seem to think this is evidence of Military pilots being less qualified but you are mistaken. You see everyone knows fighter pilots always brag about winning the yellow snow contest, and FAA guys are real sensitive about always losing the yellow snow contest (the real one, not the figurative one). Fighter guys just don't know when to keep their mouth shut. You will notice the heavy mil guys were smart and didn't PO the FAA in the middle of a check ride by challenging them to a yellow snow contest.

Moral: Don't challenge the FAA Examiner to a yellow snow contest unless you are absolutely, positively, 100% sure that you will lose, which is pretty dam+ unlikely.

 

[mesaba13]

Disclaimer: Regional Civilian guy

The Military guy is and always has been a known quantity who was able to complete training on schedule under duress. They complete missions where the flying part is secondary to other high workload tasks. With CRM school at the airlines these days the transition for a military guy should be low threat. Suggesting that a military guy start at a regional is ridiculous. That being said we all know idiots from every background

 

[Jack Campbell]

A civilian pilot with a proven training record is also a known quantity. Multiple type ratings, dozens of Part 135 and Part 121 training events and thousands of hours of experience should level the playing field, but it seems there is still the notion on this board the mil guy is superior. Doesn't make sense. There are a lot of very qualified, safe civ pilots vying for top jobs and any airline that doesn't give them serious consideration is ignoring a strong talent base.

 

[Turtle21]

A civilian pilot with a proven training record is also a known quantity. Multiple type ratings, dozens of Part 135 and Part 121 training events and thousands of hours of experience should level the playing field, but it seems there is still the notion on this board the mil guy is superior. Doesn't make sense. There are a lot of very qualified, safe civ pilots vying for top jobs and any airline that doesn't give them serious consideration is ignoring a strong talent base.

The reason so many folks give fighter guys $h!t is because so many people feel inferior to them, or maybe they just deserve it. But in any case the more folks give them $h!t the more superior it makes them feel.

 

[user912]

I was part of American Eagle when the AA pilots started furloughing. We had a flow back agreement with AA that stated AE would take and put the AA pilots in the left seat as they flowed back. Unfortunately AA had hired right up until the furlough and they had plenty of 1,500 hour single seat fighter pilots that had been at AA less than 6 months. Now given time most of those fighter jocks will learn the ropes and become productive Airline pilots. That was not the case when they were being sent back into the Captains position at Eagle though. It didn't take the FAA or the poor F.O. long to realize that the fighter guys had almost no transitional experience to flying Passengers aircraft in a crew environment. There was problems with WX as none of those guys have ever really dealt with WX, Deicing, crowded terminal environments, CRM, ect. The FAA removed all of those low time fighter pilots from their captain positions and made them get at least 3,000 hours before they would allow them to become P.I.C. again. I guess they just weren't too impressed with all those Night vision low altitude bombing runs after all.

Found outside the confines of FI


the demands of regional aviation with its compressed training schedules can be a rude awakening. When the parent company of American Airlines and American Eagle (AMR) got the Eagle pilots to sign an 18 year contract it did so not by offering better working conditions at Eagle but rather offering the carrot of a potential ?flow through? of its senior pilots to American. The unanticipated events of 9/11 brought, instead, a ?flow back? of junior American Airlines pilots, like Brian Schiff, to American Eagle. Flowing back as well were some American Airlines new hires with very little civilian time who found it difficult to get through training.

 

[Jack Campbell]

The reason so many folks give fighter guys $h!t is because so many people feel inferior to them, or maybe they just deserve it. But in any case the more folks give them $h!t the more superior it makes them feel.

Did I give fighter guys a hassle in my post? No. Read my post again.

What I'm saying is that both backgrounds have a lot of really qualified pilots and neither group should be looked at as superior. Capiche?

Some people need to put words in others' mouths to make it appear they are superior and if that describes you, that's wonderful!

 

[Turtle21]

Did I give fighter guys a hassle in my post? No. Read my post again.

What I'm saying is that both backgrounds have a lot of really qualified pilots and neither group should be looked at as superior. Capiche?

Some people need to put words in others' mouths to make it appear they are superior and if that describes you, that's wonderful!

You seem awfully defensive...
Do you consider yourself to be included in "so many folks"?