Age 66?

[wil]

If I have been planning my retirement accordingly this age change should not be too bad as I will be at the top of the scale. However, one of the facets of Airline work that I liked was the age 60 rule- oh well, not the first time I've been screwed!! Do retired pilots loose their seniority number at their respective Airline? Fly safe- And General Lee, watch out for Boss Hogg!!!

 

[pilotyip]

put age 60 in the union contract

Hey for you union airline guys make your union force retirement at age 60, let the Fed's establish a realistic age and then the union can set any age they want under it. And those of us who have no retriment until SS at age 66 can continue to work in the 121 bottom feeder industries hauling cargo. And we won't brother any of the junior people on the union senority list. promise. I am all for age 66 it could be the greatest birthday present for my 60th coming up in September 03.

 

[46Driver]

I'm gonna agree with pilotyip. Let the FAA set the age at 66 and then if DALPA wants to retire at age 60, then fine - Delta pilots retire at age 60. For the rest of us who aren't going to make it to a major, leave us alone and let us work a few extra years to get a decent retirement. Funny thing is that ALPA fought the age 60 rule for years.....

 

[mkingmei]

Everyone makes it sound like they can never touch another airplane and you license turns to dust after 60... go fly fractional, flight instruct, do whatever.
If the age 60 rule gets changed, then the retirement will change and we will be forced to work longer to receive a full pension so the option of getting out at 60 will have been taken away.
Keep it and give the rest of us the chance the older guys already had.

2 cents

 

[N2264J]

Isn't stagnation part of the industry?

One thing the age 60 rule currently does is CREATE MOVEMENT--which is something this industry desperately needs. If guys are allowed to stay on beyond that there will be STAGNATION for years.

You knew there would be periods of stagnation when you
joined the organization. (See how condescending that sounds?)

Seriously, aren't you implying that everyone, including those now on furlough, would stay to 66 if given the opportunity?

If that's what we're saying then it seems to me we have a huge representational problem with our union using our dues dollars to oppose the wishes of the majority of line pilots.

Those with or without defined benefit plans can still retire at 60 if they want to. Is that not correct? Changing the rule would give them and everyone else a choice.

I think the argument about keeping furloughees off line for an additional 5 or 6 years is a strawman.

 

[46Driver]

mkingmei,
The object is to build up enough for retirement. Honestly, you know it makes no sense to leave a company at the peak of your earning power and seniority to start over somewhere else at age 60.
What kind of pension does Southwest have? JetBlue? Air Tran? Almost all of the regionals? A 401k. The defined benefit plans are going away. Also when the rule was enacted (I believe it was 1958) what was the average life expectancy? What is it now in 2003? Substantially longer, therefore to be fair to your employer, if you are on a defined benefit plan, you probably should work longer. However, as said before, leave the decision to each individual union.

 

[Skull-One]

Right on. The FAA enacted the rule in March of 1960. Prior to that it was a "Company" thing.

 

[flx757]

What kind of pension does Southwest have? JetBlue? Air Tran? Almost all of the regionals? A 401k.

I can't speak for the rest, but AirTran, in addition to a 401(k), has a Defined Contribution Pension Plan, to which the company conributes 8% (10.5% effective 3/31/04) of each pilot's gross monthly earnings.

 

[Intruder One]

You know this gets brought up all the time............Its really a mute point...... it will pass.Maybe not this time or next but within a few years it will.In a country that is so policitial correct that you can't discriminate against anything or anyone especially senior citizens.Age discrimination for pilots wiil not surrive, if you don't like it move to Sweden.

 

[mkingmei]

I love how this gets brought up as age discrimination all of the time, give me a break. If it really were then we would have no age for drinking, buying cigarettes, voting, ATP, sex... you name it.
We all knew the rules when we got into this career, just like the folks that have retired before us.
We may all know people who are as sharp as ever at 70, but we also know others who can't drive straight down the road at 50. 60 is just a median based on common sense, just like the rest of the legal ages.
VOTE NO!

 

[pilotyip]

yes mkingmei

You are probably very young, seeing no ATP and the F/O position, and figure you will never have to deal with the realities of living after age 60, if you are lucky you will be all set at age 60 and if you are like most of us at age 60 you will be in hurt city when your good job at 70K per year is taken away from you and you can drive a bread truck route or flip burgers. And you have very little control of where you will be at age 60, because we are all hostages to fortune in this business, and for every one who makes it there will be more than one who tried and did not make it. As posted before have your union make you retire at age 60 and lets those of us in bottom feeder of the 121 business keep our jobs until age 66 when SSN kicks in.

 

[Networ-King]

You know,

For a bunch of smart people that fly some sophisticated equipment with alot of lives in your control, some of you are freaking morons in my book. This age 60 BS is exactly that.... a bunch of BS. If for one minute you rely on your company to take good care of you during your later years then you better get a clue and open your fuc*ing eyes. NOTHING is ever for sure. You guys that are bitching up and down about wanting to work till your 65, all yourdoing is letting eveyone on this board know that your too stupid to set yourself up in any other way. I normally don't come out on this forum and poke fun or accuse, but you guys take the fu*king fruit cake of the year award. If flying is the only thing that you can do then you need to start educating youself. Fu*K the age 60 rule..... you could lose your medical tomorrow and your screwed, then what? And no, you don't need alot of money to get yourself set up...... I was flying for Eagle when I bought my first Duplex with only 5K down. You guys that want to keep working till your death beds...... ever hear the phrase "work smarter not harder"? As you can tell this topic has hit a soar spot with many people........ we all knew when we had to retire, we all knew the rules when we joined and now Im reading all of this crap. This age 60 rule will FU*K over lots and lots of pilots, now and in the future. This whole thing stinks of the "FU*K YOU IVE GOT MINE" attitude. You guys can rag on me all you want, but after you do..... .why don't you go and look at yourself in the mirror and ask yourself one questions......

What am going to do if I lose my medical tomorrow?

Many of you have not gotten furloughed and have not realized that this is a possibility at any point. The key thing is to set yourself up some other way........ myself..... .I am currently furloughed from my second flying job and on unemployment, and still putting away money every month into savings. Thats because Ive set myself up and I'd be willing to clue anyone who's interested in how to do it. Send me a pm and I'd be happy to do that. You guys have to realize sooner or later that this age 60 rule is nothing but BULL$hit.

Now if you've married and divorced 5 flt attendants....... well you've made your bed....... now die in it. oooops I meant lie in it.


Pilotyip,

Who do you fly for...... 121? or 135? Yip....hhmmm DA-20's---USA Check aka active aero? What do you care? Knew many of guys past 60 at Grand Aire, you can fly till your 90. Whats your beef on this topic? Unless you've gotten on with a 121 carrier?


sorry for the long post.

 

[pilotyip]

USA Jet

I fly for USA Jet and I fly both the DC-9 and the DA-20, I would like to fly the DC-9 after Sept 03, seeing we are going into passenger operations, but the DC-9 is a 121 airplane, so I don't get to. I could retire at age 60, but I will retire in much better style at age 66, so I have to keep working. Yes I have been "between jobs" many times and survived taking a variet of different jobs, but at a much lower pay than I made flying.

 

[DoinTime]

Those with or without defined benefit plans can still retire at 60 if they want to. Is that not correct? Changing the rule would give them and everyone else a choice.

Many defined benefit pensions have a clause that penalizes you for early retirement. At NWA your pension is penalized 4% for every year that you retire early. If you were to retire at 60 when the mandatory age was 66 you would take a nearly 25% hit on your pension benefits (six years of compunded deductions).

 

[Networ-King]

Pilotyip,

Ooopps sorry about that...... momentary brain spasm. USA Jet right. Now you could easily stay there and fly past 60 if you were in the falcons couldnt you? DC-9s for now till your 60 then back in the 20's till your ready, unless you can't go back and forth because of company ops. Either way, I stongly believe that age 60 for 121 is a must. Alot of the people here think that they are going to retire at the regionals. Now unless you've given up then your right, but sooner or later....(much later) this industry will gonna come back around and the majors will hire again. And if guys are there till they're 66 then guess what.... it'll just take that much longer and by then it won't be worth it and you'll find yourself supporting the RJDC. lol sorry could'nt resist.

 

[tittyjet]

I haven't read anyone in this thread addressing the problem of slowing reflexes, losing the sharpness of the mind, etc.

While I know this doesn't automatically happen at age 59yrs, 364days, it does get worse around this age. As a matter of medical fact, the early onset of Alzheimer's disease most often happens in the early sixties. While someone can pass a Class I medical just fine, do they, in fact, have what it takes to stay ahead of a transport category airplane at .84? How can we, as an industry, assure the flying public that the guys up front can remember to put their shoes on the correct feet?

I know this doesn't happen to everyone, so I do think that if these guys continue to fly after age 60, they should be subject to some type of screening for mental degeneration.

 

[AAsRedHeadedbro]

To all of you folks out there who support the continuation of the age 60 rule and who have given us all long, well thought out arguments in favor of it, consider this: The primary supporters of this rule for the past 40 plus years have been the pilot unions, led by ALPA. The unions have supported this rule for one reason - it allows the more junior pilots on the seniority lists, the ones who make up most of the union membership, to move up to higher paying jobs sooner. That's it in a nutshell. Every other bullsh*t argument I've heard (and I've been flying 121 for 12 years now and have heard just about all of them) is just an attempt to rationalize the obvious. What you are really saying is that it really IS about ME, ME, ME. "Get that old guy out of the cockpit so that I can have my rightful place in that seat. Those old guys knew what the rules were when they signed up for this gig years ago. Why change now?" It's not about safety or anything else. It's about the desires of the younger guys on the list, pure and simple. Admit it.

Personally, I happen to be one of the younger guys, since I am only 39. But I am 100% against the age 60 rule. I have ALWAYS been against the age 60 rule.

You know...I have to laugh at the absurdity of the younger pilots - who are much greater in number than the older pilots about to retire and therefore have the power and influence to direct official policy - who dare make the claim that the older guys are being selfish, when at the core of it, it's the younger guys who are being openly selfish by demanding that the old guys get out of "their" rightful seats.

And "Networ-King", you make some pretty brash statements about the relative intelligence level of your fellow pilots who just don't seem to get it (in your esteemed opinion). But I guess you know what you’re talking about since you’ve flown an Airbus and are therefore intellectually superior.

 

[General Lee]

AAredheadedbro,

What other laws would you like to change now? With all of the unemployment out there in this industry today, does it seem like a good time for this? I know that pilots don't lose their skills the day after they turn 60, but the one thing they knew getting into this business is that at age 60 they would have to leave one of the two front seats (the FE seat was an option for some unitil they parked a bunch). A couple years ago some regionals were hiring Embry-Riddle interns with 200 hours total and putting them into RJ's. Back then there was a shortage, and now there is a glut. There still might be another major airline going Chap 7, and that would add another 7-8,000 pilots into the unemployment ranks. No one is disputing whether or not a 60 year old can fly a 777. The problem is timing and what is fair. Changing the rules because your company sucks and your contract stinks is not fair to everyone else. Even if this thing passes, it will be years before people come back because there will be lawsuits (probably by ALPA) on where exactly these pilots go back to. Do they go back to their last assigned aircraft? What if that aircraft is gone from the fleet? Will they come back after all of the furloughs return? There are no concrete rules to this, and the lawyers will have a field day. The airlines are not in favor of this either, and they will appeal or sue or whatever. Overall, we know they are competent pilots, but they knew the rules. What other rules can we break or change now? This is a free country, so I guess the right to marry your sister is next?

Bye Bye--General Lee

 

[DDpaysoff]

email?

Do you have an address so we can mail $$$ to the reps like the airlines are doing? Do you know how much $$$ this would cost the airlines? No way it passes. Somebody is getting rich right now to vote no.

 

[Freight Dog]

I agree with General Lee and Networ-King.

Age 60 - please. Give it up and retire. I am a young guy in my 20's, so I have my entire career ahead of me. My airline currently offers A-plan, B-plan, and 401k, and unless we get "USAIRed", I ought to have a sweet retirement.

Am I counting on that? No way! I have a whole separate retirement deal set up for me that's not dependent on my airline. I want to be able to retire comfortably if my airline disappeared off the face of the earth along with my airline retirement.

What I don't want to see is down the road if the retirement age goes up to 65 or whatever, is me getting forced to work till 65 or get penalized. That would be a load of crap, and all this because of pilots before me who wouldn't manage and care about their retirement in young age. Why should I be punished for your piss-poor planning?

This is still not to mention the thousands of furloughees currently out of a job, and potentially even more furloughees that would hit the street if the old guys started coming back.