AGE 65 Victory Party

[jke406]

you got beat by grandpa....

No, we got beat by YOUR self-serving ALPA stooges, who failed to support the majority of their dues-paying membership.

But I'm sure you can find some way to shirk blame or pass ALPA's buck, as you always do.

Good day

 

[Rez O. Lewshun]

No, we got beat by YOUR self-serving ALPA stooges, who failed to support the majority of their dues-paying membership.

But I'm sure you can find some way to shirk blame or pass ALPA's buck, as you always do.

Good day

As long as you keep saying majority of the membership, it speaks volumes of your ignorance, ineffectiveness and apathy....

Are things going the way you want? Got someone to blame.... all is obvious but the solution to your problems...

Who's repsonsibilbe for your problems...?

I really don't care about 60/65... what is coming is the real problem... but you don't want to talk about that...

You just want to discuss the majority of the miniority.

Good day.

 

[jke406]

As long as you keep saying majority of the membership, it speaks volumes of your ignorance, ineffectiveness and apathy....

Are things going the way you want? Got someone to blame.... all is obvious but the solution to your problems...

Who's repsonsibilbe for your problems...?

I really don't care about 60/65... what is coming is the real problem... but you don't want to talk about that...

You just want to discuss the majority of the miniority.

Good day.

you come on this forum and taunt the younger pilots who will pay dearly for this arbitrary and selfish rule change.

then you spit out some meaningless drivel (above post) and try to pass it off as a lecture.

"my" union at work.

 

[pipe]

FedEx - Dozens of awarded Captain bids pulled due to 65.

CAL - 37 Captains bumped due to 65.

Just the number of lost Capt bids in the US already exceeds the number of over 60 foreign Captains that were "inundating the US skies".

It's only been one month and the bloodletting of the young to the benefit of the old has already begun. If you old guys want to gloat, go somewhere else. Do not revel in the suffering of others. It's very unbecoming.

PIPE

 

[Rez O. Lewshun]

you come on this forum and taunt the younger pilots who will pay dearly for this arbitrary and selfish rule change.

Its not about me. You can try and make it that... maybe you'll make your self feel better that I am a jerk or whatever four letter word you want to use...

Do you prepare for a PC? Or do you just show up and expect others to carry you thru? The fact is the old guy preared for the PC and you didn't. Sure you said you wanted to pass, but the old guy studied, found out what he needed to do to get what he wanted...and got it.... Now, your pouting makes you look even more ineffective and childish...

By your post and reply you still don't get it... Will you?

then you spit out some meaningless drivel (above post) and try to pass it off as a lecture.

I guess you don't get it....

What about the question: If the age 60 rule is going to pass, do you want ALPA to make the best of it or fight it hard? (my words)

What about deregulation? Should ALPA still be fighting it?

Life is about changes? Either adapt or die?

Look man, I am not going to sit here and placate your pain.... You want to be pissed off and ineffective be that way....

"my" union at work.

You have to take ownership for it to be your union.

Adapt or die.....

 

[Rez O. Lewshun]

FedEx - Dozens of awarded Captain bids pulled due to 65.

CAL - 37 Captains bumped due to 65.

Source?

 

[mdf]

Okay, I am going to reply to this thread even though it is of very little use.

The age 65 change had nothing to do with how well prepared the senior folks were. It had nothing to do with the ICAO, APAAD, ALPA, SWAPA, or whatever other alphabet organization you want to throw out there. It had to do with one thing, and that was "who is going to write the check". That being the check to cover all these recently retired folks who lost their pension. Our underfunded, and over budget govt. had a few choices to make. The first, and most sensible would be to hold companies, and mgt responsible. If they did that they would be leaving all their CEO/Lawyer type buddies out in the cold. This would have been hard to do since most politicians used to be lawyers, who now make laws. The second choice would be to push it off on someone else, mainly the taxpayer. That would be you, and I. The ironic twist here is that by keeping pilots working 5 extra years kills a few birds with one stone. Just a few listed here:

1. They won't be collecting PBC money
2. They will continue paying taxes
3. They will keep their 401k money balances which will help keep money mgt. fee's churning
4. They will lose some of the best years of their lives, and will probably increase their chances of death before age 65, thus never going on the govt. books at all.

What has really happened is another govt. bailout by the employee. A self imposed B scale if you will. So I don't know what all the cheering is about.

The only real victory party going on here is the one they are having in D.C. You know those guys who voted 390-0 in favor of this law. I am sure they are at the club smoking fine cigars, and sipping brandy, giggling like mad over this moral crusade.

 

[Sluggo_63]

Source?

Don't know about CAL, but here is the source for FedEx:

In addition, the vacancy bidding process is designed to facilitate redistributing crew positions to best match demand. In keeping with those provisions, we are going to cancel portions of the 07-02 and 07-03 awards and issue a new posting that reflects our recalculated staffing needs.

This essentially cancelled 42 widebody Captain awards and 35 narrowbody awards (and all the associated movement for F/O's) that was posted prior to December 13, and rebid those, allowing the over-60 engineers to fill those slots versus the under-60 pilots who had already been awarded them in the previous 07-02 and 07-03 bids.

 

[Rez O. Lewshun]

.....

 

[waveflyer]

mdf- well said

Rez- i agree w/ some of your points on apathy- but also think that there are things that alpa has done that increase that apathy instead of promote it. That being said-= i do have a question:

I'm an FO not making a whole lot- and yet my 2% is more than my cell phone, internet, or car insurance. Aren't the majority of your arguments kind of like hiring a guy to mow your lawn and then have him tell you to help him mow?

I shouldn't have to tell comcast how to run their company- or help them do it- I just want my internet to work- and since i'm paying them for that- isn't that a justified sentiment?

Office space: "what exactly... would you say ... you do here??" Seriously- if it's ALL our fault- what are we paying for?

Leadership matters- and leaders don't blame those they lead. It's not too much to expect some leadership AND results for all the money we give. Is it too much to expect ALPA national to have a plan and be accountable to it?

 

[Benhuntn]

I happen to love sour grapes and this posted has sated my desire. Now I go read some meaningful post somewhere else.

 

[Flopgut]

The pilots who end up doing the worst things to their fellow pilots all start out talking like Rez.

 

[Flopgut]

Okay, I am going to reply to this thread even though it is of very little use.

The age 65 change had nothing to do with how well prepared the senior folks were. It had nothing to do with the ICAO, APAAD, ALPA, SWAPA, or whatever other alphabet organization you want to throw out there. It had to do with one thing, and that was "who is going to write the check". That being the check to cover all these recently retired folks who lost their pension. Our underfunded, and over budget govt. had a few choices to make. The first, and most sensible would be to hold companies, and mgt responsible. If they did that they would be leaving all their CEO/Lawyer type buddies out in the cold. This would have been hard to do since most politicians used to be lawyers, who now make laws. The second choice would be to push it off on someone else, mainly the taxpayer. That would be you, and I. The ironic twist here is that by keeping pilots working 5 extra years kills a few birds with one stone. Just a few listed here:

1. They won't be collecting PBC money
2. They will continue paying taxes
3. They will keep their 401k money balances which will help keep money mgt. fee's churning
4. They will lose some of the best years of their lives, and will probably increase their chances of death before age 65, thus never going on the govt. books at all.

What has really happened is another govt. bailout by the employee. A self imposed B scale if you will. So I don't know what all the cheering is about.

The only real victory party going on here is the one they are having in D.C. You know those guys who voted 390-0 in favor of this law. I am sure they are at the club smoking fine cigars, and sipping brandy, giggling like mad over this moral crusade.

I like this post!

I'd like to remind: It (this change, this way) doesn't share the pain. If it did it probably would have been too much to sneak by. The guys who would have retired in 08? They're in the club with a cigar as well.

Case in point: Undaunted flyer said on here he'd be happy to get re-hired at UAL and fly from the bottom of the list. Last I read, he supports filing a lawsuit for his old seniority!? He wanted the seniority AND the law changed!!

I think every pilot over 60 should be encouraged to bid one quarter per year of reserve.

 

[Whataburger]

FedEx - Dozens of awarded Captain bids pulled due to 65.

CAL - 37 Captains bumped due to 65.


PIPE

SWA - Well over 100 upgrades NOT gonna happen in '08 due to age 65, and less hiring, etc, etc.

 

[Rez O. Lewshun]

mdf- well said

Rez- i agree w/ some of your points on apathy- but also think that there are things that alpa has done that increase that apathy instead of promote it. That being said-= i do have a question:

I agree... ALPA has made allot of mistakes... so.. should I work to learn from the mistakes or withdraw? Which is more effective?

I'm an FO not making a whole lot- and yet my 2% is more than my cell phone, internet, or car insurance.

Have you factored in the IRS deduction? In addtion, as an FO you'd be making less if you weren't at an union carrier...

Aren't the majority of your arguments kind of like hiring a guy to mow your lawn and then have him tell you to help him mow?

No. Did we hire ALPA? Are the expectations of what professional career representation is or should be valid? And if so? Why?

I shouldn't have to tell comcast how to run their company- or help them do it- I just want my internet to work- and since i'm paying them for that- isn't that a justified sentiment?

ahhh.. the service mentality....

Why should an ALPA pilot, volunteer his/her free time and others don't? A guy with a wife and two kids gives up his free time and a single guy gets programmed surfing the message boards and decides ALPA suxs.... What is wrong with this picture?

Office space: "what exactly... would you say ... you do here??" Seriously- if it's ALL our fault- what are we paying for?

Good question..... why not..... not pay for it and see what happens....

Liken it to paying taxes... if you decided to not pay taxes.. would the services (police/fire etc..) that we take for granted still be available....??

Unions are self government... democracy... democracy means compromise.... do you get everything you want in your family relationships? If your marriage is healthy then you don't.... there is plenty of compromise...

Leadership matters- and leaders don't blame those they lead.

Fine. What responsibilites does the membership have? If you want to talk about the leadership, blame and responsibility, then we also get to talk about membership responsibility...

No one has yet to answer this question....

What responsibilities does the membership have?

It's not too much to expect some leadership AND results for all the money we give.

Why? The leadership is elected by a minority!! The elected reps that the ALPA members sent to the BOD elected Prater. But it all started with each member. Simply put... the memberships apathy gave the BOD the leeway to vote in the current President.

In addition, satisfaction with Woerth was low.. so a new Pres is elected and guys are not happy with him? So what is the deal? The membership is never happy! Is there a problem with democracy? Is the alternative better? If so... what is the alternative?

Is it too much to expect ALPA national to have a plan and be accountable to it?

Is it too much to expect the membership to adhere to its repsonsibilites?

As professionals and Air Line Captains I find it regressive that we are quick to place the blame game. Why is it that ALPA members expect so much from thier leadership but are willing to do so little themselves...

Recall.... you elected the leadership.... well... that is is if you were part of the 1/3 (minority) that bother to particapte in the LEC election...

Look man.... I hear what the membership is saying... but what comes first (chicken/egg) active membership or effective leadership....

What can you control? Your individual participation.

What can you influence? Your union leadership.


Look.. ALPA is not perfect.. we have allot of problems... but rejecting the union when member particaption is minimal isn't going to solve problems...

Many pilots simply operate as if unions shoud be thier personal career agent. Why? Why do you think a democracy unlike gov't should cater to your own expectations... There are 60,000 pilots that each want something different from ALPA. Can anyone or any organization make 60,000 pilots happy?


There is a serious expectation problem. Where do these expectations come from? Manage your expectations...!!

I am not saying unions/ALPA/gov't, democracies basically, are all things wonderful. We have big problems... but the smart, effective and engaged guys.. work the issues.. they stay focused on task, with education, information, relationships, teamwork and empathy... all boring stuff I know.... but that is how the founding fathers formated our democracy...

To withdraw is regreesive.... If the inflight emergency doesn't meant your expectations do you slide the seat back and say... this suxs.. I am not flying anymore?