Age 65 on fast track

[Andy]

I guess only time will tell. I recall you stating that age 65 was dead because the Democrats control the Congress now. Funny.:laugh:

Time has nothing to do with it. It's very clear that a flight engineer is NOT a pilot. That won't change with time. It's very clear that those over 60 will not be able to return to their previous job. That may change when the bill goes to the floor for debate, but it is unlikely since those that favor the change have been clear that this will not be retroactive. Even in paragraph five of that letter from a few Senators makes it clear that reinstatement is not an included right in the legislation.

I called 65 dead for two years when the Dems won control of both houses. I had no idea of the chicanery that would take place at ALPA national. Definitely not foreseen by me and I was wrong about age 65 being temporarily on hold - my forecast was incorrect.
Age 65's definitely not dead, but it's also not a slam dunk. It will be difficult to get the FAA Authorization Bill passed. It won't pass in it's current form. There are quite a few hurdles that could kill the bill. It's not a slam dunk by any stretch of the imagination. And neither is a change through the NPRM process.

 

[Ex737Driver]

Foreign carriers doing it in US airspace. Hard not to justify. Doesn't the FAA Authorization have to be in place by 10/1/07? It is coming. Anyway when all the young folks reach age 60, they might be glad this happened. User fees. The airlines are pushing this big time. They just might accept age 65 to get the fees. They would love to put General Aviation out of business.
If that does happen, where do the age 60 guys go if the age does not change.

Glad? Glad? Are you stoned? Who the hell in their right mind wants to work past 60? Obvoiusly you missed the post here that showed the correlation between dying earlier the more you worked past 55.

 

[Beetle007]

Beetle007, since you will continue as a crew member past age 60 as a flight attendant will that make you eligible to take your left seat back if a change happens?

Have fun with the old hags in the back Beetle007. You should know them all well after working the last 30 years with them.

Look at the top of your seniority list and read the title. If it says "Pilot System Seniority List" (or anything similar) then anyone included on that list is considered a pilot (regardless of their position in the company). How hard is this for you to understand. Im guessing that some companies have flight engineers (and other positions) on their PILOT seniority list.

I think it is pretty obvious that any person on the PILOT seniority list the day this goes into effect will have an easy argument to bid back to the left seat. How are you going to explain to an employment law judge that your PILOT seniority list includes non-pilots?

 

[Andy]

Look at the top of your seniority list and read the title. If it says "Pilot System Seniority List" (or anything similar) then anyone included on that list is considered a pilot (regardless of their position in the company). How hard is this for you to understand. Im guessing that some companies have flight engineers (and other positions) on their PILOT seniority list.

I think it is pretty obvious that any person on the PILOT seniority list the day this goes into effect will have an easy argument to bid back to the left seat. How are you going to explain to an employment law judge that your PILOT seniority list includes non-pilots?

At United, we have a pilot seniority list and a system seniority list (perhaps called flight officer seniority list; I'm not positive).
This is another fly in the ointment that will delay implementation of any change, so I'm all in favor of us opening that can of worms. And those over 60, please keep those waiver requests and lawsuits going. All that stuff is just throwing sand in the gears of change.

 

[airfogey]

Glad? Glad? Are you stoned? Who the hell in their right mind wants to work past 60? Obvoiusly you missed the post here that showed the correlation between dying earlier the more you worked past 55.

I'm in my right mind and I would like to be able to work past age 60 if I want to. I don't know about the rest of you, but I actually look forward to going to work, every day in the air brings something new and interesting, the very worst day in the cockpit beats the very best day behind a desk. Personally, I hope the change to age 60 stays on a fast track and I would like to see the change be made retroactive to last Nov 23, I've already seen too many of my close friends unnessarily forced out since then.

Airfogey

 

[RIOtoPilot]

I'm in my right mind and I would like to be able to work past age 60 if I want to. I don't know about the rest of you, but I actually look forward to going to work, every day in the air brings something new and interesting, the very worst day in the cockpit beats the very best day behind a desk. Personally, I hope the change to age 60 stays on a fast track and I would like to see the change be made retroactive to last Nov 23, I've already seen too many of my close friends unnessarily forced out since then.

Airfogey

What about your thousands of friends unnecessarily forced into furlough? Do you care that they get a chance to come back?

 

[Deuce130]

I don't know about the rest of you, but I actually look forward to going to work, every day in the air brings something new and interesting, the very worst day in the cockpit beats the very best day behind a desk.

And the very worst day in my own home, in my own backyard, with my own family and nothing to do beats the very best day in the air. The only thing better than a day flying is a day off. It's hard for me to fully digest the Age 65 change as 60 is so far away for me, but I do know for a fact that I'd retire tomorrow if I could. And I'm only 33....

 

[mule]

And the very worst day in my own home, in my own backyard, with my own family and nothing to do beats the very best day in the air. The only thing better than a day flying is a day off. It's hard for me to fully digest the Age 65 change as 60 is so far away for me, but I do know for a fact that I'd retire tomorrow if I could. And I'm only 33....

The only thing better than flying is....not flying.

 

[vixin]

The ones that need to work past 60 are the 3 time divorcee or the loser with no life. I didnt want to work until 60 heck maybe 58. I love flying but I love a lot of other things to. At 60 I will have spent 46 years of my life in planes thats enough. I want to do other things before I need a walker to get down a Jetway. I feel sorry for those that need to work until 65 not having a life outside of aviation is pathetic. Not to mention the greedy ones that want to have there cake and eat it to, but I guess those are the ones without a life.
Those that just want to keep flying get out into the 91 or 91k world. Oh wait that would mean less money you cant fly for that.

Now as a resault of this I may have to work past 60. Thanks to all the old greedy son of a guns. Have fun eating that cake. I hope it goes down well.

 

[filejw]

Vixin, I flew with a guy last week that told me he wants to fly past 60 cause he likes the job now for the same reason he like it at 25 when he was hired.This gent has plenty going for him on the side with sport and business. So he has a point in wanting to stay and being only 55 I think the rules will be changing for him.

 

[vixin]

He is the far and few. Congrats for him. The rest of us will pay for the very few like that.

 

[BoilerUP]

The rest of us will pay

Needs to be stated again...and again...and again.

"The rest of us will pay" for the loss of pensions, the management ineptitude, the acceptance of concessionary contracts, personal financial mismanagement. We will pay with our seniority and career progression, with our checkbook, with our pilot unity, and possibly (but hopefully not) with passenger lives. But hey, at least those folks 50+ years old that benefited their whole careers from the career progression Age 60 retirement provided will get an extra 5 years! After all, don't they deserve it?

 

[Quimby]

I still want to know how age 65 is not discrimination, but 60 is?

 

[filejw]

Well at 65 you would at least have the same working rights a your neighbor next door.Just don't look for me on the line I'll be skiing even though the guy I mentioned in my previous post made me think about "The Job".I realize still enjoy coming to work it too.I'v always though anyone that works a pilot just for the money has a screw loose.

 

[vixin]

As boiler said the guy you mentioned advanced his career and benefitted from the age 60 rule. So now he wants the best of both worlds. If he wants to fly so bad let him go to a fractional and enjoy all the flying he wants. Heck he can even stay past 65 there. I flew with to many retired 60+ airline pilots at a fractional. Like I said before all but 1 should have been flying still. He was sharp as a tack. The other 15-20 should not be in a high performence airplane.

 

[FlyBoeingJets]

Thank you for the info Andy.

You are a gentleman for remaining so patient with folks unhappy with the messenger here.


I know I can't sway you guys with bad assumptions, but I can't resist trying...


1) A union negotiated document, say a seniority list or other seniority based rights, is not the same as an FAA recognized definition of a pilot. The FARs (old term I know) define what is and what is not a pilot. Not any company, union, or "informal letter". No matter how important the politician that signs it. I don't think Congress is going to use any definition other than that endorsed by the FAA.

2) If you have trouble reading a legal document and how it denies promotion or reinstatement to a PILOT position following demotion, I can't help you. I highly recommend someone you trust to read and interpret it for you.

 

[ivauir]

I think it is pretty obvious that any person on the PILOT seniority list the day this goes into effect will have an easy argument to bid back to the left seat. How are you going to explain to an employment law judge that your PILOT seniority list includes non-pilots?

You think a judge is more interested in what yout senority list title is then what the FARs say? You are dreaming...

 

[Cobra]

I'm in my right mind and I would like to be able to work past age 60 if I want to. I don't know about the rest of you, but I actually look forward to going to work, every day in the air brings something new and interesting, the very worst day in the cockpit beats the very best day behind a desk. Personally, I hope the change to age 60 stays on a fast track and I would like to see the change be made retroactive to last Nov 23, I've already seen too many of my close friends unnessarily forced out since then.

Airfogey

Then go work at one of the fractionals. They hire guys over the age 60 mark all the time. Flying makes one age faster. If the emissions from the screens or the sun doesn't get you then the constant circadian cycle disruptions will. Personally, I want to hit 60 and enjoy the remaining years without flying. While I am still young and good looking

 

[Andy]

Thank you for the info Andy.

You are a gentleman for remaining so patient with folks unhappy with the messenger here./quote]

BoeingJets, thanks for the nice words. But I'm definitely not a gentleman; I am trying to be less confrontational than I have in the past, but it's a struggle.

 

[Falconjet]

Keep up the good fight Andy.

Many thanks,

FJ

 

[AlbieF15]

FJ,

Any interest in a recall...if only to slap the mule and get its attention? Even if you keep the same mule its nice to know it listens.

Lots of PMs being sent back on forth on the subject. Wondering your take....here or in private.

Cheers.

 

[Falconjet]

Short answer: Yes I would support a recall effort. I'm not sure its warranted just yet, because if ALPA is able to prevent the FAA Authorization Bill from going forward with the age change legislation included and assure that the change would come from the NPRM process, then the leaders would have been right and probably saved us from a hastily conceived, short-sighted effort that will cause more problems for all of us.

I don't think that will be the case, but it could still play out that way. There is still the issue of DW's insistence on flaunting his authority and opinions, and that is why although I would wait, I would still support a recall at this time, if for no other reason then to express our concern over the direction he is heading.

FJ

 

[AlbieF15]

We'll see what happens after the ALPA meetings this week.

 

[Jonny Sacko]

Ya Andy, please keep us aware if you hear any other nonsense. Thanks
You are fighting the good fight, unlike the greedy farts. Also, did you guys know the guy that started the AAPD, or whatever it's called is some piece of ******************** Southwest captain that lost NOTHING in the entire 9/11 fiasco, or furlough mess. What an arrogant ass.

I really hope it doesn't ever help someone like that. Pure UN-AMERICAN ASS

 

[filejw]

Don't forget in 1959 a bunch of FO's got a nice windfall too. What goes around comes around.

 

[Deuce130]

Don't forget in 1959 a bunch of FO's got a nice windfall too. What goes around comes around.

Well, seeing as my parent's were still teenagers in 1959, I have no clue as to what you're talking about. Neither does anyone else, I'd bet. I have no clue what happened in 1959, I don't care who those FOs were or how many there were, or who they worked for. They're probably all dead by now, anyway. How does it apply to 2007 and what's going on right now? It doesn't.

 

[Andy]

Don't forget in 1959 a bunch of FO's got a nice windfall too. What goes around comes around.

You might want to do a bit of research before making such a statement. Go to the Federal Register dated 27 June, 1959. There's an item on the NPRM. It states that there were zero pilots over the age of 60 in 1947; the number of over 60 pilots was estimated to be at least 80 and in 1967, it was estimated to be 250.
250 is less than the number of age 60 pilots retiring this year at United. All of them were hired when the age 60 rule was in effect.

 

[AlbieF15]

For those who want to weigh in at purple, a junior guy is taking names and employee numbers to petition a recall of our MEC chairman at :

[email protected].

Names won't be published unless he gets the 1200 or so required to start the process.