Age 65 on fast track

[luckytohaveajob]

My guess, is that any pilot on the seniority list (regardless of if they are a flight engineer, sim instructor, etc) the day this goes into effect can continue as a pilot until the age of 65.

Beetle007, since you will continue as a crew member past age 60 as a flight attendant will that make you eligible to take your left seat back if a change happens?

Have fun with the old hags in the back Beetle007. You should know them all well after working the last 30 years with them.

 

[Andy]

A S/O is a pilot at any other ALPA carrier that has them.

LOL! An S/O is NOT a pilot. If an S/O WERE a pilot, they would be bound to retire at age 60 as per 121.383c. DUH!!

It also appears that the Senators disagree with your view. Then how should the know? Could be that is the insight you get when you write the legislation in question!

I am not expressing a point of view; I am stating FACT. Read the freaking bill before commenting.
You posted a link to a letter that has nothing to do with the discussion of over 60 pilots returning to the cockpit. Read your links before posting.

 

[FoxHunter]

LOL! An S/O is NOT a pilot. If an S/O WERE a pilot, they would be bound to retire at age 60 as per 121.383c. DUH!!



I am not expressing a point of view; I am stating FACT. Read the freaking bill before commenting.
You posted a link to a letter that has nothing to do with the discussion of over 60 pilots returning to the cockpit. Read your links before posting.

FAR 121.383c has nothing to do with retirement.

The over S/Os have never left the cockpit. The Senators say it will be up to individual labor agreements. At FedEx all S/Os are on the active pilot seniority list. They all have the same rights, the guy with two years at age 35, or the guy with 30 years at age 61.

You are correct that the Bill in present form does not allow a pilot that has been removed from a list to return.

 

[ToThePain]

FAR 121.383c has nothing to do with retirement.

The over S/Os have never left the cockpit. The Senators say it will be up to individual labor agreements. At FedEx all S/Os are on the active pilot seniority list. They all have the same rights, the guy with two years at age 35, or the guy with 30 years at age 61.

You are correct that the Bill in present form does not allow a pilot that has been removed from a list to return.

Fox,
you may be right but that certainly does not seem the intent if you read this statement. "
(c) Applicability- The provisions of subsection (a) shall not provide a basis for a claim of seniority under any labor agreement in effect between a recognized bargaining unit for pilots and an air carrier engaged in operations under part 121 of title 14, Code of Federal Regulations, that is made by a person who was a pilot and who attained 60 years of age before the effective date described in subsection (e) and is seeking a position as a pilot with such air carrier following that person's termination or cessation of employment or promotion or transfer to another position with such air carrier pursuant to section 121.383(c) of title 14, Code of Federal Regulations, as in effect on the day before the effective date described in subsection (e).

I would think that any Captain pushed out of his seat back to FO, any FO pushed out of his seat back to SO would certainly claim that this law "a) shall not provide a basis for a claim of seniority under any labor agreement in effect between a recognized bargaining unit for pilots". In other words they should not lose their positions because a "senior pilot" who is now a second officer does not have the right to push them out of their respective seats.l I would also think that being moved from Captain and SO would be considered "a transfer to another position with such air carrier".

 

[Andy]

FAR 121.383c has nothing to do with retirement.

Dude, are you for real? Here's 121.383c:

(c) No certificate holder may use the services of any person as a pilot on an airplane engaged in operations under this part if that person has reached his 60th birthday. No person may serve as a pilot on an airplane engaged in operations under this part if that person has reached his 60th birthday.

The over S/Os have never left the cockpit. The Senators say it will be up to individual labor agreements. At FedEx all S/Os are on the active pilot seniority list. They all have the same rights, the guy with two years at age 35, or the guy with 30 years at age 61.

You are correct that the Bill in present form does not allow a pilot that has been removed from a list to return.

Over 60 S/Os continue to remain employed because they are no longer employed as pilots. As per 121.383c. DUH!!

This is extremely clearcut; no former pilots over the age of 60 who are now S/Os, simulator instructors, flight attendants, baggage handlers, etc will be able to return to pilot status. Read the text of the bill; this is not complex legalese.
From section 706 of S 1300:

• (c) Applicability- The provisions of subsection (a) shall not provide a basis for a claim of seniority under any labor agreement in effect between a recognized bargaining unit for pilots and an air carrier engaged in operations under part 121 of title 14, Code of Federal Regulations, that is made by a person who was a pilot and who attained 60 years of age before the effective date described in subsection (e) and is seeking a position as a pilot with such air carrier following that person's termination or cessation of employment or promotion or transfer to another position with such air carrier pursuant to section 121.383(c) of title 14, Code of Federal Regulations, as in effect on the day before the effective date described in subsection (e).

• 
  ​

 

[FoxHunter]

Dude, are you for real? Here's 121.383c:

(c) No certificate holder may use the services of any person as a pilot on an airplane engaged in operations under this part if that person has reached his 60th birthday. No person may serve as a pilot on an airplane engaged in operations under this part if that person has reached his 60th birthday.



Over 60 S/Os continue to remain employed because they are no longer employed as pilots. As per 121.383c. DUH!!

This is extremely clearcut; no former pilots over the age of 60 who are now S/Os, simulator instructors, flight attendants, baggage handlers, etc will be able to return to pilot status. Read the text of the bill; this is not complex legalese.
From section 706 of S 1300:

• (c) Applicability- The provisions of subsection (a) shall not provide a basis for a claim of seniority under any labor agreement in effect between a recognized bargaining unit for pilots and an air carrier engaged in operations under part 121 of title 14, Code of Federal Regulations, that is made by a person who was a pilot and who attained 60 years of age before the effective date described in subsection (e) and is seeking a position as a pilot with such air carrier following that person's termination or cessation of employment or promotion or transfer to another position with such air carrier pursuant to section 121.383(c) of title 14, Code of Federal Regulations, as in effect on the day before the effective date described in subsection (e).

Read the Senators again.

 

[Andy]

Read the Senators again.

Wow! The Senators' letter has no weight in this matter; S 1300 is what will be put on the floor of the Senate to be voted on, not a letter signed by a few Senators.

Let me guess; you turn 60 later this year and are looking for a way to return back to a pilot seat after taking a flight engineer position if this isn't enacted before you reach 60. It's not going to happen. Deal with it. You're pi$$ing in the wind, just like Klako did last year.

This is very clearcut. This is not a gray area; there are no interpretations on my part. If you are unable to comprehend this, I shudder to think of the difficulties you must experience in your everyday life. The mere fact that you'd state that FAR 121.383c has nothing to do with retirement set off bells and whistles for me; your cognitive abilities appear to be in rapid decline. 121.383c is even cited in the text of the change.

Personally, I could give a rat's a$$ about flight engineers; United doesn't have them and they're not likely to return to United so this isn't even an issue for me. However, you're posting blatantly incorrect information. Please sit back and try to comprehend the text of section 706 of S 1300 and do some research on what the definition of a pilot is.

 

[FoxHunter]

Wow! The Senators' letter has no weight in this matter; S 1300 is what will be put on the floor of the Senate to be voted on, not a letter signed by a few Senators.

Let me guess; you turn 60 later this year and are looking for a way to return back to a pilot seat after taking a flight engineer position if this isn't enacted before you reach 60. It's not going to happen. Deal with it. You're pi$$ing in the wind, just like Klako did last year.

This is very clearcut. This is not a gray area; there are no interpretations on my part. If you are unable to comprehend this, I shudder to think of the difficulties you must experience in your everyday life. The mere fact that you'd state that FAR 121.383c has nothing to do with retirement set off bells and whistles for me; your cognitive abilities appear to be in rapid decline. 121.383c is even cited in the text of the change.

Personally, I could give a rat's a$$ about flight engineers; United doesn't have them and they're not likely to return to United so this isn't even an issue for me. However, you're posting blatantly incorrect information. Please sit back and try to comprehend the text of section 706 of S 1300 and do some research on what the definition of a pilot is.

I guess only time will tell. I recall you stating that age 65 was dead because the Democrats control the Congress now. Funny.:laugh:

 

[furloughed dude]

Looks like Foxhunter is going to be serving coffee for the rest of his career! Now that is funny!

 

[Dizel8]

FH needs to go enjoy life in retirement!

 

[Andy]

I guess only time will tell. I recall you stating that age 65 was dead because the Democrats control the Congress now. Funny.:laugh:

Time has nothing to do with it. It's very clear that a flight engineer is NOT a pilot. That won't change with time. It's very clear that those over 60 will not be able to return to their previous job. That may change when the bill goes to the floor for debate, but it is unlikely since those that favor the change have been clear that this will not be retroactive. Even in paragraph five of that letter from a few Senators makes it clear that reinstatement is not an included right in the legislation.

I called 65 dead for two years when the Dems won control of both houses. I had no idea of the chicanery that would take place at ALPA national. Definitely not foreseen by me and I was wrong about age 65 being temporarily on hold - my forecast was incorrect.
Age 65's definitely not dead, but it's also not a slam dunk. It will be difficult to get the FAA Authorization Bill passed. It won't pass in it's current form. There are quite a few hurdles that could kill the bill. It's not a slam dunk by any stretch of the imagination. And neither is a change through the NPRM process.

 

[Ex737Driver]

Foreign carriers doing it in US airspace. Hard not to justify. Doesn't the FAA Authorization have to be in place by 10/1/07? It is coming. Anyway when all the young folks reach age 60, they might be glad this happened. User fees. The airlines are pushing this big time. They just might accept age 65 to get the fees. They would love to put General Aviation out of business.
If that does happen, where do the age 60 guys go if the age does not change.

Glad? Glad? Are you stoned? Who the hell in their right mind wants to work past 60? Obvoiusly you missed the post here that showed the correlation between dying earlier the more you worked past 55.

 

[Beetle007]

Beetle007, since you will continue as a crew member past age 60 as a flight attendant will that make you eligible to take your left seat back if a change happens?

Have fun with the old hags in the back Beetle007. You should know them all well after working the last 30 years with them.

Look at the top of your seniority list and read the title. If it says "Pilot System Seniority List" (or anything similar) then anyone included on that list is considered a pilot (regardless of their position in the company). How hard is this for you to understand. Im guessing that some companies have flight engineers (and other positions) on their PILOT seniority list.

I think it is pretty obvious that any person on the PILOT seniority list the day this goes into effect will have an easy argument to bid back to the left seat. How are you going to explain to an employment law judge that your PILOT seniority list includes non-pilots?

 

[Andy]

Look at the top of your seniority list and read the title. If it says "Pilot System Seniority List" (or anything similar) then anyone included on that list is considered a pilot (regardless of their position in the company). How hard is this for you to understand. Im guessing that some companies have flight engineers (and other positions) on their PILOT seniority list.

I think it is pretty obvious that any person on the PILOT seniority list the day this goes into effect will have an easy argument to bid back to the left seat. How are you going to explain to an employment law judge that your PILOT seniority list includes non-pilots?

At United, we have a pilot seniority list and a system seniority list (perhaps called flight officer seniority list; I'm not positive).
This is another fly in the ointment that will delay implementation of any change, so I'm all in favor of us opening that can of worms. And those over 60, please keep those waiver requests and lawsuits going. All that stuff is just throwing sand in the gears of change.

 

[airfogey]

Glad? Glad? Are you stoned? Who the hell in their right mind wants to work past 60? Obvoiusly you missed the post here that showed the correlation between dying earlier the more you worked past 55.

I'm in my right mind and I would like to be able to work past age 60 if I want to. I don't know about the rest of you, but I actually look forward to going to work, every day in the air brings something new and interesting, the very worst day in the cockpit beats the very best day behind a desk. Personally, I hope the change to age 60 stays on a fast track and I would like to see the change be made retroactive to last Nov 23, I've already seen too many of my close friends unnessarily forced out since then.

Airfogey

 

[RIOtoPilot]

I'm in my right mind and I would like to be able to work past age 60 if I want to. I don't know about the rest of you, but I actually look forward to going to work, every day in the air brings something new and interesting, the very worst day in the cockpit beats the very best day behind a desk. Personally, I hope the change to age 60 stays on a fast track and I would like to see the change be made retroactive to last Nov 23, I've already seen too many of my close friends unnessarily forced out since then.

Airfogey

What about your thousands of friends unnecessarily forced into furlough? Do you care that they get a chance to come back?

 

[Deuce130]

I don't know about the rest of you, but I actually look forward to going to work, every day in the air brings something new and interesting, the very worst day in the cockpit beats the very best day behind a desk.

And the very worst day in my own home, in my own backyard, with my own family and nothing to do beats the very best day in the air. The only thing better than a day flying is a day off. It's hard for me to fully digest the Age 65 change as 60 is so far away for me, but I do know for a fact that I'd retire tomorrow if I could. And I'm only 33....

 

[mule]

And the very worst day in my own home, in my own backyard, with my own family and nothing to do beats the very best day in the air. The only thing better than a day flying is a day off. It's hard for me to fully digest the Age 65 change as 60 is so far away for me, but I do know for a fact that I'd retire tomorrow if I could. And I'm only 33....

The only thing better than flying is....not flying.

 

[vixin]

The ones that need to work past 60 are the 3 time divorcee or the loser with no life. I didnt want to work until 60 heck maybe 58. I love flying but I love a lot of other things to. At 60 I will have spent 46 years of my life in planes thats enough. I want to do other things before I need a walker to get down a Jetway. I feel sorry for those that need to work until 65 not having a life outside of aviation is pathetic. Not to mention the greedy ones that want to have there cake and eat it to, but I guess those are the ones without a life.
Those that just want to keep flying get out into the 91 or 91k world. Oh wait that would mean less money you cant fly for that.

Now as a resault of this I may have to work past 60. Thanks to all the old greedy son of a guns. Have fun eating that cake. I hope it goes down well.

 

[filejw]

Vixin, I flew with a guy last week that told me he wants to fly past 60 cause he likes the job now for the same reason he like it at 25 when he was hired.This gent has plenty going for him on the side with sport and business. So he has a point in wanting to stay and being only 55 I think the rules will be changing for him.