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Age 65-ICAO

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FoxHunter

Well-known member
Joined
Jan 4, 2002
Posts
679
SECRETARIAT'S COMMENTS​

While IAASM fully supports ICAO reviewing the current upper age limit for pilots at this time and AsMA simply states that available medical evidence is insufficient to support restrictions based on age alone, IATA recommends that the age limit be increased to 65 years for pilots engaged in multi-crew operations with the proviso thatthe other member/s of the flight crew are younger than 60 and that older pilots undergo medical examinations every six months. IFALPA, however, believes that the upper age limit for pilots must remain at 60, because this limit has stood the test of time and no change is currently warranted. IFALPA argues that the upper age limit of 60 is a safety requirement and [therefore] should not be changed for current economic, political or legal reasons. In principle, the Secretariat is in agreement with this position, but considers that the age limit should not normally be changed or maintained forreasons other than technical reasons related to flight safety. However, if desirable for social, economic or other reasons and if possible without adverse effect on safety, a change may well be considered. IFALPA further argues that it has been determined that safety considerations and scientific research dictate that no change to the 60 year upper age limitis warranted at this time. The Secretariat is not aware of any study indicating a significant increase in risk to flight safety posed by older airline pilots. On the contrary, both the previous (from 1995) and the present ICAO survey of relevant experience accumulated in recent years in Contracting States indicate thatolder pilots do not present any particular risk to flight safety. Neither is the Secretariat aware of scientific research that dictates the maintenance of the current upper age limit. On the contrary, studies conducted in Japan (1990) and United States (1993) both gave indication that pilots' retirement age could safely beincreased by severalyears, and a very recent study of 165 commuter aircraft accidents in the United States between 1983 and 1997 points to no notable differences between the age groups except that the percentage of crashes involving pilot error decreased somewhat with age, being lowest for pilots between 58 and 63. The over-all conclusion was that neither the prevalence nor the pattern of aircraft accidents change significantly as age increases from the 40s to the 50s and early 60s. In another recent study in the United States, a cohort of more than 3 300 commuter and air taxi pilots, who were between 45 and 54 years old in 1987, were followed for eleven years. No age-related increase in crash risk was shown, butthe risk of crash decreased by half among pilots with more than 5 000 flying hours at baseline. In Japan, in a study of its 60-63 year-old airline pilots, it was found that none had been involved in an accident during the ten-year study period (1992-2001) while during the same period 323 accidents including twenty-seven airline accidents had been reported to the authorities. The purpose of simulator checks, line flying checks and regulatory health examinations is to contain the risk of pilot ‘failure' during the period of validity of the rating or medical certificate;it appears from available evidence that such checks do ensure adequate protection of flight safety for those aged under 60 years. The Secretariat knows of no reason to believe that they will fail to do so for those aged 60 to 64 years. Moreover, there is still today, as stated by AsMA, insufficient medical evidence to support any restrictions based on age alone. In the JAA countries, the upper age limit of 60 has been maintained for pilots in single-crew operations, but since 1 July 1999, the JAA regulations have allowed airline pilots to continue flying until age 65 with limitation to multi-crew operations and with the proviso thatno other member of the flight crew is older than 59. However, the Secretariat is aware that this proviso was not based on medical grounds but rather the result of a compromise between the different parties. Although recommended by IATA, the Secretariat does not consider this proviso safety relevant for the following reason: For the individual pilot engaged in multi-crew operations, it is today generally accepted that a medical incapacitation risk of one percent per annum ("The 1% Rule") is fully compatible with the desired flight safety level for airline operations. This risk levelcorresponds to one medical incapacitation per 100 years or approximately one million hours. Male pilots from Scandinavia, United Kingdom and North-America are likely to approach this risk level when they are around 65, female pilots three to four years later. The risk of two older pilots becoming medically incapacitated at the same time, during the same one-hour flight, is thus one per trillion hours (1 trillion = 1012 or one million × one million), a risk so low that it can safely be disregarded.
 
Japan

The government of Japan agrees with the proposed amendment to increase the upper age limit for pilots and would like to take this opportunity to introduce the status of upper age limit in Japan.

1) Since 1996, the GOJ has allowed airline pilots who are under the age of 63 to continue to work in air transport services under the following conditions:

a) In multi-crew operation, the other pilot shall be under the age of 60;
b) A pilot over the age of 60 shall be subject to additional medical examinations every six months.

2) Last summer, after carefully conducting a study on the feasibility of extending upper age limits based on our experience and the recent progress of medical sciences, the GOJ changed the upper limits from 63 to 65.

3) So far more than 450 airline pilots over the age of 60 have met the requirements of additional medical examinations, and of these, more than 120 are currently working in the air transport services. No airline pilots over the age of 60 have been involved in an accident.
 
Canada

Canada is in agreement with comments.

Canada would like to see the age restriction removed entirely as the Canadian Charter of Rights and Freedoms, Article 15, makes limitations based purely on age, discriminatory. Canada currently does not curtail the privileges of pilots who have attained their 60th birthday. Canada has no objections to pilots who are 60 years of age or older, holding a medically valid ICAO Contracting State licence, from flying foreign registered aircraft within Canadian airspace.
 
America does not. ALPA voted and put it down. IT'S ALREADY VOTED DOWN. STOP CONTINUING THE NEW THREADS, IT'S A WASTE OF TIME.



You Don't have to go home, but you can't stay here. If you want to continue flying, no problem, join a fractional or corporate department, and see the world.
 
Jonny Sacko said:
America does not. ALPA voted and put it down. IT'S ALREADY VOTED DOWN. STOP CONTINUING THE NEW THREADS, IT'S A WASTE OF TIME.



You Don't have to go home, but you can't stay here. If you want to continue flying, no problem, join a fractional or corporate department, and see the world.

ALPA conducted a poll, not a vote. I never waste my time.:)
 
Wow...the French let you fly after age 60. Good for them! They also eat the parts of animals we throw away, like the pancreas, spleen, etc.

I understand they consider Jerry Lewis a comedic genius, too.
 
understand the French can also drink wine in flight?
 
Occam's Razor said:
Wow...the French let you fly after age 60. Good for them! They also eat the parts of animals we throw away, like the pancreas, spleen, etc.

I understand they consider Jerry Lewis a comedic genius, too.

I always enjoy sharp, well informed guys like you!:) France today, although a JAA country, does not allow Captains over the age of 60 to land or fly in their airspace. That will change next November. There were four nations that voted against the age 65. They were France, USA, Pakistan, and Columbia.

I am sure that France is happy to have you on their side.
 
Fox - you are still on my ignore list, but I understand you are now a member. I'd like proof, but good on 'ya if true. However, what Jonny said - GIVE IT A REST and stop pushing the can't see / enlarged prostate / pr1ck doesn't work anymore / clogged arteries / high BP wanna fly til I die on my FO geezer stuff on us.
 
Age 65 discriminates

The "proposed" change of the mandatory Age 60 airline retirement rule to age 65 discriminates against the over 65 group - AND even the over 70 group at that!!! Everyone pushing for a change are not thinking about the elderly over 65 pilot group that wants to fly until, say 70 or 73, what then?

The Age 60 rule should not be changed - everyone knew the rule was in place when they started their respective airline career - now they want to change it for their own selfish finanacial reasons while damaging the younger crewforce career goals. This minority group easily forgets they got to upgrade based on the current Age 60 rule....
 
FoxHunter said:
ALPA conducted a poll, not a vote. I never waste my time.:)

The Supreme Court also voted down this age increase when some Southwest pilots tried to change it. It is all about age discrimination, and when you change it for one group, you must change it for another--like Firemen and Policemen. I don't want a 62 year old fireman trying to carry me down a flight of stairs in the dark and smoke over his shoulder. Do you? ALPA is against it, and so am I. Their poll will reflect their stance.


Bye Bye--General Lee
 
"The Supreme Court also voted down this age increase when some Southwest pilots tried to change it"

This isn't your daddy's Supreme Court. Roe V Wade has been upheld by SC of the past, it may be gone under the new one.

"I don't want a 62 year old fireman trying to carry me down a flight of stairs in the dark and smoke over his shoulder"

Instead you will have a 23 y/o 100 pound female dragging your lerch like frame out that replaced the old guy.

"Their poll will reflect their stance"

As a few more Captains who thought they were secure post airline life figure out it aint so, watch that vote skew.
 
Russ said:
"The Supreme Court also voted down this age increase when some Southwest pilots tried to change it"

This isn't your daddy's Supreme Court. Roe V Wade has been upheld by SC of the past, it may be gone under the new one.

"I don't want a 62 year old fireman trying to carry me down a flight of stairs in the dark and smoke over his shoulder"

Instead you will have a 23 y/o 100 pound female dragging your lerch like frame out that replaced the old guy.

"Their poll will reflect their stance"

As a few more Captains who thought they were secure post airline life figure out it aint so, watch that vote skew.

Wow, you really sound confident of that. Wow. ALPA and the Supreme Court DON'T AGREE WITH YOU. Sorry. Maybe monkies will fly out of your butt too?

Bye Bye--General Lee
 
now now name calling never added to anything
 
pilotyip said:
now now name calling never added to anything

Who called anyone names? Show me.


Bye Bye--General Lee
 
Never said you, getting a little defensive are we in our young age? Don’t worry you will grow out of it when you get older.
 
pilotyip said:
Never said you, getting a little defensive are we in our young age? Don’t worry you will grow out of it when you get older.

After I turn 60 I will probably forget it immediately. Wait, what was I talking about?


Bye Bye--General Lee
 
FoxHunter said:
I always enjoy sharp, well informed guys like you!:)

Like a bowling ball...that's me!

FoxHunter said:
France today, although a JAA country, does not allow Captains over the age of 60 to land or fly in their airspace.

Much the way the US doesn't? I understand the French might be changing the rule soon? Isn't that the thrust of this thread? There is a movement afoot in the US to change our rule too. A rule I happen to support.

FoxHunter said:
That will change next November.

A-Ha! I was right! They are changing it.

FoxHunter said:
There were four nations that voted against the age 65. They were France, USA, Pakistan, and Columbia.

"And I'm proud to be an Ameri-caaaaaaaaaan....where at least I know..."

FoxHunter said:
I am sure that France is happy to have you on their side.

Who wouldn't be?
 
Just because ALPA is against it doesn't mean they share the same view as all pilots flying commercially. They also endorsed Kerry when a good number of ALPA pilots voted for Bush... so does that mean all pilots want to retire at 60? NO. Not all pilots are ALPA pilots either... If ICAO pilots retire at 65, why can't we? I don't want at 65 year old fireman carrying me down the stairs but what if a 59 year 31 day fireman shows up at your burning house? If he's physically fit and passed all his tests what's the difference tomorrow when he shows up at your burning house at age 60, ummm, 1 day...
 
Russ said:
GL
You can disagree without being disagreeable.

I know, and sometimes I go a bit overboard.

Bye Bye--General Lee
 
BLUE BAYOU said:
Just because ALPA is against it doesn't mean they share the same view as all pilots flying commercially. They also endorsed Kerry when a good number of ALPA pilots voted for Bush... so does that mean all pilots want to retire at 60? NO. Not all pilots are ALPA pilots either... If ICAO pilots retire at 65, why can't we? I don't want at 65 year old fireman carrying me down the stairs but what if a 59 year 31 day fireman shows up at your burning house? If he's physically fit and passed all his tests what's the difference tomorrow when he shows up at your burning house at age 60, ummm, 1 day...

ALPA has the political clout to take it to Congress and talk about the issues. Most pilots can't do that alone.

Bye Bye--General Lee
 
Keep the good news coming FoxHunter! With all the Legacy pensions going the way of the dinosaur, its just a matter of time now.
 
When I grew up in an airline household the only thing about retiring I heard about from dad and others was maybe punching out early. The guys that retired did so and seemed happy to do so, I can't remember anyone whining about it.

My own 12 years in the industry have been dramatically different, from day one i've heard nothing but whizzing and moaning about the rule.

Well at least if it passes we won't have to either whiz and moan about it or listen to whizzing and moaning about it for another five years.

Yeah, lets show all those gready bastards who stole our livelihoods over the last 15 years, we'll work longer, in fact right up until we die if we have to. That'll show em, its time to get tough.
 
For those who want the rule changed thats fine I don't begrudge that at all. If it changes, thats fine too. The post above was simply my take on it, thats all.
 
Change it with punishment

If legislation is passed allowing an increase in the age limit it should only be done in an non-punitive manner.

It should increase the age one month for every year that passes.

Also, no one over age 60 should be a captain but only stay as an FO.

This would not negatively affecting those who have not benefited in the same way that those that already have benefited from the age 60 retirements that all of a sudden want a changed for their benefit.

And if this can not be done, gradually over time and no over 60 captains, then do not change it.
 
The government allows my employer to take my pension (and give it to senior management) and denies me the opportunity to continue to work a few years longer to make it up. Ok.

Maybe those who are against raising the retirement age now will get the "opportunity" to experience this in their careers.

I know I was against raising the retirement age when I was 35 and Carl Icahn terminated the TWA pilot's pensions. What goes around comes around, I guess.TC
 
If it is changed how long before managements use that as an excuse to ratchet us down even further? After all we will have more earning years available to us, not to mention more and more folks at the top of the scale for them to pay. Does anyone think managements, after all they have done to us, are going to let that one slide?

We will just beat the snot out of ourselves longer and longer for less and less. I just don't think that will be progress for us at all.
 
ALPA National is the problem

ALPA national is the problem. And pitting one group of pilots against another group is just bad news.

ALPA national has allowed this race to the bottom and the need to recover the losses sustained by those damaged. And those damaged have not held ALPA national accountable.

What MEC's have called for a recall of Duane Worthless? None that I am aware of in recent readings.

What terminal ALPA carrier has made a stand for the good of the whole? None- US air is still in business, UAL got $3b and the same management and union control the situation, etc.

ALPA is the problem and it should not be taken out on the bottom half of the list because the top half of this list would not do it the long term way.
 
BLUE BAYOU said:
I don't want at 65 year old fireman carrying me down the stairs but what if a 59 year 31 day fireman shows up at your burning house? If he's physically fit and passed all his tests what's the difference tomorrow when he shows up at your burning house at age 60, ummm, 1 day...

I agree.

The Max Temp for engine start is 570C. I mean why can't it be 571C? What's the difference? If the engine looked good on preflight and passed all of its tests and got signed off by mx, then why not 572C or heck, even 575C?

what the hell, it's only one start cycle that went over the limit... what could go wrong?

:erm:

Sincerely,

B. Franklin
 

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