Age 60 rule

[Andy]

I think that all depends on individual self interest, as usual. Interesting history behind the rule. ALPA fought the rule for 20+ years before switching positions. Now with the pension fiasco it looks like that will change back again. Congress will mandate the change, not the FAA. That may be the only solution to keep the PBGC solvent without taxpayer money.

http://www.ppf.org/chrono.htm

http://www.apaad.org/

I agree that congress will mandate the change. What I'd like to see is some suggestions from pilots/ALPA on how to implement the change.
Based on how close the vote was in the last session of Congress (with a lot of ALPA opposition), I don't see how it won't pass now that ALPA has softened its position considerably.

You're absolutely correct about self-interest, but I would think that suggesting to Congress a gradual phase-in would be the prudent approach to implementing the change. Again, I am opposed to change in any way, shape, or form.

 

[hr2eternity]

No Way

I am against raising the age. I also believe that if someone hasn't sufficiently saved for their retirement by 60, there's something else wrong. What the age 59+ guys don't think about, is how it would affect the other struggling (younger) generations that are trying to feed their families and save for their retirerment. The way we look at it is: hey you got your chance, if you didn't save enough, that's your problem, but it doens't give you the right to clog up our seniority list for ever, does it? Like the other dude said, go work for a non 121 operation if you can't stand the idea of not flying anymore. But if you want to stick around on the seniority list till your 70, you're out of your mind. The issue is, supply and demand. The rule will never change and here's why: there's a higher percentage of younger pilots out there who airlines can pay less, and who have more longevity (not on earth, but with the company in question). Why would the company want to keep around a guy they have to pay top dollar to for 5 or 10 more years when they can pay some 38 year old half to do it? I work for a company with about 300 engineers and 2200 pilots. 180 or so of those engineers have been clogging up our seniority list for years making any upward movement in the engineer seat impossible. Just imagine if the were still in the left seat instead? Think about it. Besides, who wants to work for anyone at age 60? I want to be sailing a boat or fishing by then.

 

[FoxHunter]

I am against raising the age. I also believe that if someone hasn't sufficiently saved for their retirement by 60, there's something else wrong. What the age 59+ guys don't think about, is how it would affect the other struggling (younger) generations that are trying to feed their families and save for their retirerment. The way we look at it is: hey you got your chance, if you didn't save enough, that's your problem, but it doens't give you the right to clog up our seniority list for ever, does it? Like the other dude said, go work for a non 121 operation if you can't stand the idea of not flying anymore. But if you want to stick around on the seniority list till your 70, you're out of your mind. The issue is, supply and demand. The rule will never change and here's why: there's a higher percentage of younger pilots out there who airlines can pay less, and who have more longevity (not on earth, but with the company in question). Why would the company want to keep around a guy they have to pay top dollar to for 5 or 10 more years when they can pay some 38 year old half to do it? I work for a company with about 300 engineers and 2200 pilots. 180 or so of those engineers have been clogging up our seniority list for years making any upward movement in the engineer seat impossible. Just imagine if the were still in the left seat instead? Think about it. Besides, who wants to work for anyone at age 60? I want to be sailing a boat or fishing by then.

Yes, there is something wrong. The pensions that these older pilots expected are disappearing. Now if these pilots are told that they will have X number of dollars per month at age 60, and 6 months before retirement are told that it will be 1/5X dollars this can hardly be called poor planning.

Now as far as saving or costing money you had better look at those numbers again. When one pilot retires he may be replaced with a 38 year old but he or she will be at the top pay scale of 12 years which is the norm at most ALPA carriers. The other fact that you ignore is that each pilot reaching age 60 causes numerous training events. In the case of FedEx it is possible to have 10 pilots in training for each retirement. Now that one person that was hired off the street may be inexpensive, but the rest of the costs are huge.

The rule came very close to being changed a couple of years ago. This was with strong opposition from ALPA, and Democrats looking for ALPA support. Now USAIR pensions were terminated, UAL about to be, DAL are frozen, NWA pensions are underfunded and the PBGC is screaming that Congress must do something. Even companies like FedEx, with strong balance sheets, have a large number of pilots supporting change because of the people they have hired, ex EAL, BNF, CAL, USAIR, Tigers and retired military will benefit from the change.

 

[Dizel8]

No to raising the retirement age!

 

[sandman2122]

Hey Foxhunter:

You said:

"Even companies like FedEx, with strong balance sheets, have a large number of pilots supporting change because of the people they have hired, ex EAL, BNF, CAL, USAIR, Tigers and retired military will benefit from the change."

Well I'm one of the many (more than likely majority) that do not support raising the age limit beyond 60. The ex EAL, BNF, CAL, USAIR, Tigers and ESPECIALLY the retire guys can keep wishing they'll get support on this issue. Even the retired military guys who already have pensions - why the heck should I sacrifice my seniority/upgrade so these guys can get two?!! Talk about wanting their cake and eating it too!

Funny how ALPA opposed it in the past over safety concerns AND now they're willing to look the other way in the interest of the mighty dollar......

 

[Falcon Jet 1]

If this does get passed, hopefully they mandate that you become an F.O., then how many will stick around? That is the only way i would go along with it and it would not effect my upgrade time.

 

[hr2eternity]

additional thoughts.

Hey Fox, thanks for your reply. No answer will ever encompass all of the factors here. I admit you bring up some interesting points. One thing that bubbles to the top of your argument is the unfortunate consequences of the current bancrupcy laws. Its a shame that those at USAIRWAYS and other carrieres will shirk their duty to pay the EARNED retirements because they want to save their own bacon/golden parachutes, etc. I didn't mean to sound insensitive when I said "there's other problems if. . .". But the answer should more likely be to advance legislation that would limit a companies ability to operate in with such marginal profitability that the only way to survive is to can someone's retirement. In other words, the retirements should be sacred and inviolate in bancrupcy protection to the extent that a company should be forced to retain its assets to a level of liquidity that allows them to still pay their retirements--BEFORE being allowed to file. This would force companies to be more responsible and remove the leverage they currently have to barter for reduced wages. Anyway, maybe I'm off on a tangent but I hope you understand my point. I just think there's a fairer way of handling it without clogging up the seniority list for ever. Why should I forego seniority that's guaranteed by a law (and was part of the decision process whereby I decided to be a career pilot) because of poorly written bancrupcy laws? Please reply and fly safe. And Dizel8 Where can we see some more pics of that babe on your profile? Or is that you?

 

[LEROY]

If the rule doesn't fit your needs, lobby to have it changed.

Think about it...if mgmt can't afford to pay the A-funds (or ANY retirement benefits, especially for those who have already retired) then ask the bankruptcy judge to let the pension funds go.

If the age 60 rule doesn't give a pilot his(her) proper retirement, then ask to have the rule changed.

Both sides of this issue seem to be working toward the same goal; self-interest.

I think it should be a criminal offense to take away the hard-earned retirement from an individual who did his time. Imagine if the U.S. government repealed military retirements!!!

By the same token, I think we all should play by the rules; we knew that age 60 was the rule when we got into this fiasco, we knew others junior to us relied upon that rule to plan THEIR financial future. Why would we sweep the rug out from underneath those junior to us to preserve self-interrest? That sounds like a mgmt tactic.

Look at the REAL culprits here. Businesses that think it's ok to give the shaft to someone who has given them their entire working life. If you want to lobby for something, lobby for criminal charges against those who liquidate pension funds in order to remain financially viable.

BTW this ain't just an airline issue...look at Bethlehem Steel...

Funny how none of this discussion has ANYTHING to do with the physiological aspects of being over-60. But then, did it ever...

Back to my beer, flame on!

 

[FoxHunter]

Hey Foxhunter:

You said:

"Even companies like FedEx, with strong balance sheets, have a large number of pilots supporting change because of the people they have hired, ex EAL, BNF, CAL, USAIR, Tigers and retired military will benefit from the change."

Well I'm one of the many (more than likely majority) that do not support raising the age limit beyond 60. The ex EAL, BNF, CAL, USAIR, Tigers and ESPECIALLY the retire guys can keep wishing they'll get support on this issue. Even the retired military guys who already have pensions - why the heck should I sacrifice my seniority/upgrade so these guys can get two?!! Talk about wanting their cake and eating it too!

Funny how ALPA opposed it in the past over safety concerns AND now they're willing to look the other way in the interest of the mighty dollar......

I think you would be suprised how many support the change. Take a look around the crew room. Young guys or old guys wearing three stripes? Many avoid the subject because it is an emotional issue.

ALPA opposed the age 60 thing in the first place. It was imposed by management at American, Western, and TWA and managment lost in arbitration. The CEO was a buddy of the first Administrator of the FAA when it was formed. Copies of the letter from CR Smith to Gen. Quesada have been made public in recent years with the FOIA. ALPA has been opposed to a lot of things the said were due to safety like, three pilots in all jet aircraft. Why do you think the 737 had a S/O for years? Safety????get real!

 

[FoxHunter]

If this does get passed, hopefully they mandate that you become an F.O., then how many will stick around? That is the only way i would go along with it and it would not effect my upgrade time.

Although I doubt it willl mandate F/O I just have to look at how many go back to S/O right now, even on the 727.

 

[Andy]

I wasn't looking for another pro vs con debate of the age 60 rule. I'm looking for a reasonable discussion on implementing a change to the age 60 rule.

Those of us opposed to changing the rule are burying our heads in the sand if we think that the current rule will remain in effect for the next decade.

What I want to know is how you would implement the change to the age 60 rule if you were in charge of the congressional subcommittee overseeing this rule change.

 

[Jim Smyth]

I think due to the situation of most of the big airlines the age 60 rule is going to go away soon. Most of them have been against flying past age 60 because it affected there pension formula. Now with the pensions going away or being greatly reduced, many professional aviators that have played by the rules and knew what to expect when they retired now have other problems in addition to the lack of retirement funds. The age 60 rule was brought into exsistence without any research and was done to get rid of the older "so called trouble maker pilots" at American in the CR Smith days. It would be nice to impose the same laws to our professional members of government! Then you would see things change fast! We currently have international airline pilots flying into the US that get to fly to 65. Fair that we have to retire at 60? Hell no! Total BS IMO! Most of the younger Pilots want it to stay around for there own self interest while the older guys want it to go away. Personally I hope I dont have to work to 60! But it would be nice to have a choice. Will it impact the youger guys if it goes away? You bet. Probably delay upgrade for 5 years. Small price to pay for when you get to the left seat and get to fly to maybe 65 without tapping your retirement nestegg. We are all in this flying game together and need to work together to overcome bad management decisions and poor economies. We need to do the right thing!

 

[sandman2122]

The right thing - my a$$! Forget about any support from ANY junior pilot's out there. Simply another wedge between senior/junior pilots, plain and simple.......still not getting my support.

Step aside gramps......go play golf or something.

 

[Jim Smyth]

Well at 45 years old I dont think my teenage boys have fathered any children yet so I wouldnt be a true Grampa, smartass! But for me personally I can retire in 10 years at 55 with full benefits so your not hurting me one bit with your lame ass comments. But I do have alot of good friends that went to other majors and they arnt in the same boat and flying a few extra years would help get you to Social Security benefits and the biggest one of all "Medicare". But it is still very short sighted thinking on your part. You may be young/younger now but in time you wont be anymore. It wont matter anyway, they will change the law to let guys fly past 60. It's inevitable now with what is going on in the industry.

 

[sandman2122]

Let me be the first to wish you a happy early retirement at 55, yeah right! I remember your "lame Southwest Captain's" lobbying on Capital Hill years back and one of the two Captain's, in uniform, actually said during the CNN interview:

"Just when I'm getting good at my profession, the government forces me to retire"

.......riiiiiiight, maybe for that oddball it takes a while to learn to fly @ the states in a 737......he certainly doesn't speak for the rest of us.

 

[FoxHunter]

The right thing - my a$$! Forget about any support from ANY junior pilot's out there. Simply another wedge between senior/junior pilots, plain and simple.......still not getting my support.

Step aside gramps......go play golf or something.

I would never expect to get your support. So you really don't expect mine? Just don't forget the coffee jug.

 

[FoxHunter]

Let me be the first to wish you a happy early retirement at 55, yeah right! I remember your "lame Southwest Captain's" lobbying on Capital Hill years back and one of the two Captain's, in uniform, actually said during the CNN interview:

"Just when I'm getting good at my profession, the government forces me to retire"

.......riiiiiiight, maybe for that oddball it takes a while to learn to fly @ the states in a 737......he certainly doesn't speak for the rest of us.

Hey, WHD you seem to be so smart having only been hired in 98'. Looking forward to passing around your views to my fellow senior airmen. Thank you for your support, good luck.

 

[atpcliff]

Hi!

Statistically, the safest pilots are the age 60 pilots who are forced to retire.

It makes sense to me. Have the government legislate when people can and can't work, and make the best workers quit before some of them want to.

Also, since there are TONS more new workers taking up the reins for the baby boomers that are retiring, Social Security and Medicaire will be well funded for eternity, and it makes sense to make people retire early, when they're at the top of their productivity, since we don't need their money to support the very few older people retiring.

CLiff
GRB

 

[Jim Smyth]

I guess Common Sense isn't something you can buy!

 

[sandman2122]

From Foxhunter:

"........Just don't forget the coffee jug."

......Funny thing is I always seem to forget that darn "java jug" when I have to fly with "left seaters" with an authority complex...........you're not short too!

Adios Napoleon