Age 60 informal poll

[pipe]

On second thought, I'm so sick of all the B.S. arguments that I'm with Jackal.

PIPE

 

[Klako]

One quote that I love:
"It is important to remember that the decision to use 60 years of age as an upper limit for commercial air transport operations was arbitrary. Currently, there is equal lack of justification for setting the age limit at 55 years or at 65 years."

A person’s age must not be the sole determination of one’s ability to safely perform the duties of an airline pilot. The federal law mandating that all airline pilots must retire at the arbitrary age of 60 was never intended to be a vehicle to enhance aviation safety. Safety is the ruse that the FAA has used to deflect criticism of it’s “Age 60 Rule” as being discriminatory and unfair to older pilots. The FAA defends the “Age 60 Rule” solely on the grounds that no one has come up with a study proving that pilots will be safer beyond their 60th birthday. The Administrator of the Federal Aviation Administration (FAA), Marion Blakey, says that the available safety data and latest medical research are insufficient for the agency to begin the steps necessary to change the age 60 rule. Thus the FAA's official position is that, in spite of numerous scientific studies, it has insufficient evidence to prove that an airline pilot would be as safe or safer if allowed to fly beyond age 60 and therefore all airline pilots must be grounded on their 60th birthday. What a pitiful distortion of logic that the FAA uses to deprive otherwise qualified persons their right to perform in their lifelong career. If the Federal government wants a law that denies an otherwise qualified person to practice in their profession, then that government must prove that there are enough scientific reasons for such a law to exist. It is the federal government’s burden to prove that all airline pilots suffer an unacceptable decline in their ability to fly beyond age 60 which poses an unacceptable safety risk to the flying public. This proof is something that Congress has repeatedly directed the FAA to come up with for over 20 years but the FAA has failed produce such proof. That proof simply dose not exist.

 

[UndauntedFlyer]

You know, I think there are a lot of younger guys out there who are reasonable and would entertain options. Phase it in. Make it 61, wait a few years, make it 62, etc..

Nobody in the age raising crowd wants to hear about that though. Why? Because it isn't about age discrimination - it's about immediate personal financial gain at the present and future expense of others.PIPE

Pipe: You have not read the proposed change. This change is a one way street. Those who are already retired will not be able to return, as unfair as that is. There will be exceptions for those who are on LOA or have downbid to S/O. So for the most part this is really an age 61, 62, etc. to age 65 change. There is a provision for a report to the NTSB after two years. At that time changes may again be made.

What with the ICAO age-65 rule in place there is no way that a change would be anything other than age 65 with the provisions I have stated.

Will this change this year or next? I don't know. If it changes this year that's what I need to keep working. If its next year I plan to become a "Redneck" and learn to drive an 18-wheeler.

If you mow your yard and find an car, you might be a redneck too.

 

[pipe]

So Klako, if the burden of proof is on the FAA, what should the age be?

As has been pointed out countless times, determining an age is arbitrary. One thing, however, is certain - the higher that age goes, the more stringent the exams must become for everyone. They won't make the exam more thorough just for the old guys - that would be age discrimination.

Bottom line, you're looking at a logistics nightmare to arbitrarily change an arbitrary rule to another arbitrary rule. Doesn't really seem to pass the sensibility test.

PIPE

 

[pipe]

Will this change this year or next? I don't know. If it changes this year thats what I need to keep working. If its next year I plan to become a "Redneck" and learn to drive an 18-wheeler.

If you mow your yard and find an car, you might be a redneck too.

You must really like to drive stuff. You're like Ricky Bobby.

 

[UndauntedFlyer]

One thing, however, is certain - the higher that age goes, the more stringent the exams must become for everyone. PIPE

Where did you get this information? From ALPA I would guess or was it just made up by someone as a scare tactic. The fact of the matter is that the FAA's Chief Air Surgeon says the 1st Class physical will be the same. The only coming changes are that those under age 60 will be taking their physicals once per year and those over age 60 will be twice per year. Can you handle that change?

 

[pipe]

It wasn't intended as a scare tactic. Just an extension of your argument. If the logic is that we're doing this to conform with most other ICAO countries, then it's also logical to assume that the physical will eventually follow. Ours are not as tough as many of theirs.

PIPE

 

[Klako]

As has been pointed out countless times, determining an age is arbitrary. One thing, however, is certain - the higher that age goes, the more stringent the exams must become for everyone. They won't make the exam more thorough just for the old guys - that would be age discrimination.

Bottom line, you're looking at a logistics nightmare to arbitrarily change an arbitrary rule to another arbitrary rule. Doesn't really seem to pass the sensibility test.

PIPE

I would not be opposed to increasing the medical standards, but the standards would have to increase for all ages. I would bet that I am in much better physical shape most of the younger guys in the industry. I fly with 40-year-old pilots that are in pathetic physical shape. I have always taken care of myself to insure that I would be able to pass the Class I physical beyond age 65.
Interestingly, the FAA grants exemptions for pilots who have had head injuries, seizures, alcohol and drug dependency, heart attacks and bypass surgery. All of these can be and are forgiven after cognitive testing but NEVER has there been an exemption for the simple fact of being one day older than 59, that magic age of 60 that somehow means a seasoned pilot no is longer fit to perform in a lifelong skill.

 

[pipe]

That's great that you could pass. Now, look at the people around you and see how they feel about.

This is the same argument all over again.

You'd be fine with that because it would be o.k. for you.

Changing the rules of the game on everyone else is fine because it would be o.k. for you.

Anyone see a trend here? Undaunted and Klako are exceptions to every criteria and the rest of the world be damned.

 

[Klako]

I think we all should agree that this is a purely political issue. The age 60 rule was conceived in politics and must now die a political death. Since it’s inception, “The Age 60 Rule” has been an on-going curse on the airline industry. The primary reason why the “Age 60 Rule” is still around today is because of the persistent opposition from ALPA and APA. ALPA and APA continue to succeed in preventing a change to the “Age 60 Rule” through their political influence within the FAA along with their lobbying efforts in Congress. The motive behind ALPA and APA resisting a change to the “Age 60 Rule” reflects the “me now” attitude of their junior pilots. The rule has had little chance of being abolished because the pilot groups under age 50 will always represent the majority, maintaining their political power through the forced retirement of pilots over age 60. Junior pilots will always view the forced retirement of all pilots over the age of 60 as essential to their career progression. Thus the majority will always maintain command of a system that succeeds in eliminating competition from the minority. When pilots over the age of 50 finally come to the realization that the “Age 60 Rule” will adversely impact the remainder of their lives, it is too late as they are now members of the minority and have little power to effect a change.

 

[Klako]

That's great that you could pass. Now, look at the people around you and see how they feel about.

This is the same argument all over again.

You'd be fine with that because it would be o.k. for you.

Changing the rules of the game on everyone else is fine because it would be o.k. for you.

Anyone see a trend here? Undaunted and Klako are exceptions to every criteria and the rest of the world be danged.

No, just have the same standard for all but increase the standards for everyone. To mandate an increased medical standard for only pilots over the age 60 is itself promoting ageism.

 

[jbDC9]

I think we all should agree that this is a purely political issue. The age 60 rule was conceived in politics and must now die a political death. Since it’s inception, “The Age 60 Rule” has been an on-going curse on the airline industry. The primary reason why the “Age 60 Rule” is still around today is because of the persistent opposition from ALPA and APA. ALPA and APA continue to succeed in preventing a change to the “Age 60 Rule” through their political influence within the FAA along with their lobbying efforts in Congress. The motive behind ALPA and APA resisting a change to the “Age 60 Rule” reflects the “me now” attitude of their junior pilots. The rule has had little chance of being abolished because the pilot groups under age 50 will always represent the majority, maintaining their political power through the forced retirement of pilots over age 60. Junior pilots will always view the forced retirement of all pilots over the age of 60 as essential to their career progression. Thus the majority will always maintain command of a system that succeeds in eliminating competition from the minority. When pilots over the age of 50 finally come to the realization that the “Age 60 Rule” will adversely impact the remainder of their lives, it is too late as they are now members of the minority and have little power to effect a change.

Jeezus H Christ Klako, knock it off already. You just posted this same exact paragraph just a few days ago, darn near word for word. Blah blah blah, you keep spewing the same crap over and over again.

We get it; you're selfish and you want the rules to fit your circumstances. Me me me. It ain't politics or safety, it's all about Klako and what he wants.

Can we end this stupid thread now?

 

[Klako]

We get it; you're selfish and you want the rules to fit your circumstances. Me me me. It ain't politics or safety, it's all about Klako and what he wants.

What I want is to keep what is mine. My job and seniority is something that no one below me should have the right to take away from me. Those of you who think that the forced retirement of senior pilots is your God given path to seniority progression had better plan on all that changing and soon. The age 60 rule has always been wrong and it is high time that Congress puts an end to it.

 

[Klako]

The bottom line is that that physical and mental decline cannot be measured by age alone. I think we have all observed that some people decline in their physical and mental abilities faster that others. There is the experience factor to be considered also. Everyone since the Wright Brothers has known that the more experienced pilot is the safer pilot. I would say that though highly experienced pilots may suffer some varying amount decline in physical abilities as they age, their experience will more than compensate for any slight physical decline in performance. Age alone must not be the measure of a safe pilot

 

[pipe]

What I want is to keep what is mine. My job and seniority is something that no one below me should have the right to take away from me. Those of you who think that the forced retirement of senior pilots is your God given path to seniority progression had better plan on all that changing and soon. The age 60 rule has always been wrong and it is high time that Congress puts an end to it.

I'm sure those were the same things you were saying about the 60yr olds who retired to trigger your upgrade class.

I can hear you now on the first day of class: " Hi, I'm Klako and I just want everyone to know I'm really uncomfortable with this. All of us in this room are stealing from a bunch of 60 year olds today. Congress must STOP THIS MADNESS NOW! By the way, does anyone have the name and address of our senator? When I write them to try to bring those guys back I also want to mention the tax rate. I already computed my new tax rate on Captain pay and this is bull$hit".