Age 60 informal poll

[pipe]

Isn't it strange how the discussion on this board has totally moved to promotions and expectations. Safety is no longer an issue because it was always BS. So now I'm just supposed to quit and give up my career because the F/O's call me greedy and other names. Is that really a reason do you think? I don't think so. Maybe if you had said please, but that won't work now, it's too late for sweet talk.

I'll say please.

Please go away. We all know where you stand. That's great. The VAST majority of us disagree for various reasons. We own those reasons. You won't change that. We won't change your opinion. Please stop!

One more please.

Moderators - please pull the plug on this tired thread.

PIPE

 

[Whistlin' Dan]

There are NO career expectations past age 60 for airline captains in this business. ZERO!

That's why I'm urging my Senator to pass this legislation. That way, the next time you or anybody else says, "There are no expectations past age 60 for airline captains in this business," I can say, "Oh yes there are! Read the new law that allows us to fly until the age of 65." And you sir may absolutely, positively, 100% count on the fact that if I am physically able, I WILL fly to that age.

You didn't "expect" that a law totally unsupported by fact, one that is unknown to aviation in most of the world and that didn't exist for for first 50 years of commercial aviation, would ever be changed?

Well, boo-freakin'-hoo, pardner. You're on notice. You can definitely expect it now.

(Jeeze...and to think that these are the same guys who contend that it's the old guys who "lack situational awareness" and the ability to assimilate new tasks and job descriptions. <Sigh...>)

I would make one suggestion. If the thought of spending a few more years in each of the seats and equipment types that your company operates makes this job simply untenable for you, I would suggest that you find another line of work as soon as possible. You're not going to like this, or some of the other changes that are coming down the pike.

I am the son of an airline pilot who lost his job and had his pension taken at 50 years old. I know how hard it is from first hand experience. He had a plan, got the family earnings back on track and started a new career, which he later retired form as an exec. Of course it wasn't easy, but he did it. And since you and your ilk are convinced that your talents and abilities are so special, I'd like to see you tackle the same challenges he did!

Why should I? I have a job, and the future of my company is somewhat assured, at least until after I retire. I don't need to "start a new career." Like your father, I too, "have a plan." In my case, it's utilizing my talents to preserve the job I have. That includes working dilligently to bring this "age 60" nonsense to an end.

By the way, you seem to feel that whatever success is enjoyed by those who came before you is directly at your expense. I'm curious...what new career did your father go into? And as he became more successful in his field, did his presence not serve to keep others from attaining higher goals?

I think your Dad should have stayed home and drawn Social Security, and let the younger guys have a shot at some of those "executive positions" at which he served. He had no business "stealing" a position at 50 years old, that so many junior staffers were hoping to get.

 

[b757driver]

That's why I'm urging my Senator to pass this legislation. That way, the next time you or anybody else says, "There are no expectations past age 60 for airline captains in this business," I can say, "Oh yes there are! Read the new law that allows us to fly until the age of 65." And you sir may absolutely, positively, 100% count on the fact that if I am physically able, I WILL fly to that age.

You didn't "expect" that a law totally unsupported by fact, one that is unknown to aviation in most of the world and that didn't exist for for first 50 years of commercial aviation, would ever be changed?

Well, boo-freakin'-hoo, pardner. You're on notice. You can definitely expect it now.

(Jeeze...and to think that these are the same guys who contend that it's the old guys who "lack situational awareness" and the ability to assimilate new tasks and job descriptions. <Sigh...>)

I would make one suggestion. If the thought of spending a few more years in each of the seats and equipment types that your company operates makes this job simply untenable for you, I would suggest that you find another line of work as soon as possible. You're not going to like this, or some of the other changes that are coming down the pike.

Why should I? I have a job, and the future of my company is somewhat assured, at least until after I retire. I don't need to "start a new career." Like your father, I too, "have a plan." In my case, it's utilizing my talents to preserve the job I have. That includes working dilligently to bring this "age 60" nonsense to an end.

By the way, you seem to feel that whatever success is enjoyed by those who came before you is directly at your expense. I'm curious...what new career did your father go into? And as he became more successful in his field, did his presence not serve to keep others from attaining higher goals?

I think your Dad should have stayed home and drawn Social Security, and let the younger guys have a shot at some of those "executive positions" at which he served. He had no business "stealing" a position at 50 years old, that so many junior staffers were hoping to get.

Brilliant, just brilliant!!:beer:

You hit it on the nail. No one ever said life was fair and the airline biz is no exception in that respect. We all have our "hard luck" stories. All the more reason why people should have a CHOICE without hindrance or malice. Those that want should (and never mind the reasons) and those that don't, can retire whenever they want. It has absolutely nothing to do with safety, stealing or any other similar nonsense. That's just smoke and mirrors.
It's about freedom of choice. This is America, isn't it??

Change is always difficult for some while others embrace it and get on with it

 

[UndauntedFlyer]

Whistlin' Dan: Great Post!

 

[Flopgut]

Whistler: I don't care so much about what the law reads. I care about the agreement made between all of us that is seniority. This is byzentine, old school, deep blue unity, and brotherhood stuff and obviously...it's lost on you! Decades of collective bargaining have created an earnings framework that is based on age 60 retirement. If you want to covet that it's basically like crossing a picket line. The labor reality such as it is I think it is very poor form to be begging a change like this now. There are too many pilots furloughed and too many future airline pilots at war right now to make this change a good thing. They deserve a chance.

Now, I'm perfectly OK with a change to the rule. But I think it should include a proper adjustment so there are no windfalls. Personally, I like rostering and assignments. Career progression based solely on seniority combined with a simple age change is going to weaken this business. Make it so the guy/girl who just left the desert flush with skills and a hungry desire to succeed can contest for the best in this business. Just think, you won't have to screw up on that tough checkride your jones'n for, just not do quite as well as the next pilot and-- your jerkin gear!

Basically, if we change the age, the best job in this business should go to the best pilots. NOT just the most senior. Then you can actually say you EARNED it.

My dad was a Sr. Dir. at a publicly traded financial services company. He did very well. There is a complete absence of the seniority dynamic in that line of work so, NO, his presence there wasn't preventing another from having a good job. The instant someone better wanted the job, he was out. (He bowed out at the top and he still turns down work after years of retirement) That's a tough mandate to live under. Why do we see so many oldsters booted out of the work force? Too many can't hang! Airline pilots have been insulated thus far and too many already have enjoyed more than they would have had otherwise. Knowing what I know about a non seniority based career endeavors, I don't have to wonder who could cut it and who couldn't. Basically, if your crying and complaining about needing more time in this business, you couldn't make it without seniority, the free labor market would eat you up. Simultaneously, there are too many old workers out there who were dealt out of the free market workforce, and almost none dealt out of the airline business, for you to suggest that most can continue to cut the gig in declining years absent seniority.

 

[Flopgut]

I'm curious...what new career did your father go into? And as he became more successful in his field, did his presence not serve to keep others from attaining higher goals?quote]

Please explain this.

He DID become more succesful and there was no seniority. What's your point? Are you actually trying to suggest something about yourself? Are you truly so delusional that you think because you're more senior, you're more succesful?

If at all so, you're definintly the sort that can't hang. The streets are full of people like you.

 

[Phaedrus]

Talk about hitting the nail on the head...
Eloquent, concise post Mr. Flopgut.

 

[UndauntedFlyer]

There is no point in talking about changing all the rules. It has taken 48 years to change just one rule, and so the age-60 is changing. So now lets just deal with it as it's going to be. It is a total waist of everybody’s time to talk about extreme changes in the seniority system. Such changes have no chance of happening. The change in the verbiage for the new FAR will be exactly the same as the ICAO rule.

 

[Phaedrus]

I wonder why Undaunted's Master Warning light came on?

 

[Gorilla]

Sadly, what I'm afraid will happen if/when this passes is yet another "list"... this one of guys over 60 still flying. You'll see some cockpit conflict for sure, with no doubt some very unexpected maladies popping up just prior to departure. Not saying it's right, just that it'll happen.