TMMT
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Ag-Pilot Ingrates...
- Thread starter stearmann4
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Captain Dork
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- Jan 31, 2008
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When you come to ag work as a 20,000 hour pilot, you're a zero time ag pilot. Everybody comes in with zero time. It's not a matter of paying one's dues...one comes in as less than a student pilot, and one learns, period.
There are a few "shortcuts." Buy your own ag operation. Farmers won't use you because they don't trust you (you'll still be the "new guy" 20 years later). You stand an even chance of not surviving your first season.
Get born into an ag operation. Hopefully those that brought you into this situation think enough of you to prevent you from killing yourself, and they'll introduce you to the locals. You won't be a stranger after 20 years, but you'll always be "opie" to the farmers who still just might want to run their fingers through your hair and ask you how your mother is.
Attend an ag school. Nobody will be interested in hiring you because attending ag school is a little like tasting food and proclaiming yourself a chef. It doesn't do anything for insurance, it doesn't give you any meaningful exposure to the aircraft, doesn't teach you how to survive in an ag operation, doesn't teach you about crops, insects, or all the other parts of of the business, and where most operators want to see a thousand hours of ag time to hire and insure you (if you're insurable)...you come away from an ag school with nothing, really.
Getting into the ag business is a conundrum, a bit of a catch 22. You can't get hired without a thousand hours of ag, but can't get a thousand hours of ag unless you're hired.
Operators want good stick and rudder skills. That doesn't mean simply keeping the ball in the middle during a turn. It means using the full operating envelope of the aircraft. That may mean right to the buffet, and it also means being able to work the aircraft when it's maxed out weight-wise, and performance-wise. It's one thing to maneuver when you've got performance to spare and a cushion of altitude; it's another to do so when you have no extra available performance and no altitude. Remember as a student pilot turning base at 500' and being told never to steepen that turn, so you don't stall-spin? You may be doing steep turns to the buffet every 30 seconds, or so, at 75', all day long, and in an airplane loaded to gross, in the wind and turbulence at times, around obstacles.
Short field and soft field aren't what are taught to student pilots. Most ag airstrips are relatively short, and many are also soft or rough. Operating off dirt roads, fields, and other places isn't uncommon in some operations. Neither is flying out to a field and landing next to it, in order to walk the crop, inspect for insects, etc. All depends on the job. Stick and rudder skills means being able to operate that maxed out airplane in and out of short and soft fields, with obstacles all day long, crosswind, or not.
The traditional method of getting hired involved coming to work loading chemical, and back when we flagged, walking the fields and flagging...standing on the edge of a field being sprayed and waving a flag for the airplane to use as a line-up reference. It may mean mixing chemical, fixing tractors, repairing aircraft, cleaning airplanes, etc...often for several years. Gradually one is moved into one of the smaller aircraft (used to be something like a supercub with a Sorenson belly rig, today more likely a Pawnee), where one goes out after the day and sprays out "rinsate" or the wastewater from flushing the spray systems. This, under close supervision. Eventually comes spraying things that won't bring much liability, like pesticides...and eventually working into a position where one sprays herbicides (the riskiest to spray, for liability).
Some operators need a body badly, have a simple, easy aircraft like the pawnee, and will put you in one. Others won't. Most others won't. Today with many operators having gone to turbine equipment, especially air tractors, there's a double block to putting you in that equipment. The aircraft are sensitive and decidedly not particularly stable, and they're expensive. An air tractor will eat your lunch if you're not ready for it, faster than you can see it coming...or it can be a nicely performing, hard working, dependable aircraft. A brand new guy in an air tractor, though, is very nearly begging for trouble. I've seen very experienced pilots who forgot to lock the tailwheel on the 802 very quickly end up in the weeds, and the airplane isn't especially forgiving like some ag airplanes, when it comes to poor handling.
I attended an ag school...not two weeks like some. I did six months of fairly intensive training that covered everything from maintenance to chemicals, entomology, crop science, etc. The school is no longer around, like most ag schools. When all was said and done, the job placement consisted of "Start driving and ask every ag operator you find, for a job."
I never knew there were so many ways to say "no."
There's no substitute for showing up on an operators front door step. If you have a well known pedigree, some operators will hire from a resume, but it's not common. Nearly everything is done in the business with a handshake, and you've got to be standing there to do that. I can tell most of what I need to know about a pilot standing and talking to him, and a flight with him just confirms what I already know. You'll find that most operators are the same way. A lot of them will go confirm it, too.
Bear in mind that the flying part is the tip of the ice berg. It's the smallest part of the job. People watch the ag operator and think to themselves "that looks like fun, I could do that." You probably could. It's not rocket science (but there's little margin for error). It's just that the fun flying part doesn't stay that way for long. It becomes hard work, and it's the smallest and best part of the job.
Someone on one of these forums recently opined that they should be paid for their time looking up weather and flightplanning...but in the ag business there's typically little or no pay for any other duties, and it's the "any other duties" that comprise most of the the job. Whether it's standing in an alfalfa field swinging a ridiculous looking butterfly net to catch and count insects, or visiting with Farmer Bailey at his field to make a chemical recommendation or crop evaluation, or replacing a cylinder on an engine or repairing a nozzle on the spray boom...there's a lot to be done that goes well beyond simply flying.
It's not required, but strongly preferred that the ag pilot is also a mechanic. In the ag business, often as not, if you break it, you fix it. Or, if you're in the general vicinity and it breaks, you fix it. Or it if breaks at all, you fix it. You get the idea. Even if you don't have your A&P, it's typically expected, or again strongly preferred, that you're capable and knowledgeable enough to do the work.
How to get the job, then...be qualified, be available, visit everyone, and eventually someone will hire you. Simple.
A few years back I was flying a turbine Dromader. A local guy really wanted to fly the airplane. He had a thousand hours or so of conventional gear time in his RV-3, but no "heavy" conventional gear time. We told him he needed to get more experience under his belt. He had a few thousand total, but nothing in ag aircraft. He asked if getting some time in an ag truck would help. It's a start, said we.
He found a job in an ag wagon towing gliders. He was training, got airborne on his first tow, and then put the airplane through a fence after he bounced the landing and groundlooped, on his first landing. He came back to us and wanted a job. But you crashed the airplane, said we. It's okay, said he. He reasoned that as he was still training and wasn't actually working for that operator, it shouldn't count against him. He couldn't understand why his thousand hours of tailwheel time didn't help him. He also couldn't understand that he'd just ruined a guy's livelihood.
Get qualified: the ag school is a start. Not much of one, but it's a start. Be mechanically in tune with your equipment. It's a hard-use job, and things need repair, upkeep, adjustment. Know that you're going to get dirty. Get good, solid, intimate stick and rudder skills; don't fly the airplane. Wear it. Find someone to hire you to get some experience, and this may take no small effort on your part. Be prepared to sacrifice your year's unemployment for a few months of ag work...it's seasonal, and it makes having another job very hard. Be prepared to travel. Be prepared to live in rural farming areas for short periods, and be prepared to have no idea what you'll be bringing in at any given time. Being qualified means a lot of preparation.
Be available. Any time, any where.
Visit everyone. That means getting in your car and driving. Days, weeks, whatever it takes. You stop when you have a job. Done.
You'll find that some operators are more interested in talking shop with you about a job when you fly to their operation. Bear in mind that ag operators don't work bankers hours, and you play hit or miss on finding them at the airport. Ag operators also tend to start early, and most tend to go to bed early. Don't make the mistake of interrupting them at work or at rest. One sure way to not be invited back.
Volumes could be written on getting hired in the ag business, and have been written on getting hired in the ag business. It's a tough business to break into.
There are a few "shortcuts." Buy your own ag operation. Farmers won't use you because they don't trust you (you'll still be the "new guy" 20 years later). You stand an even chance of not surviving your first season.
Get born into an ag operation. Hopefully those that brought you into this situation think enough of you to prevent you from killing yourself, and they'll introduce you to the locals. You won't be a stranger after 20 years, but you'll always be "opie" to the farmers who still just might want to run their fingers through your hair and ask you how your mother is.
Attend an ag school. Nobody will be interested in hiring you because attending ag school is a little like tasting food and proclaiming yourself a chef. It doesn't do anything for insurance, it doesn't give you any meaningful exposure to the aircraft, doesn't teach you how to survive in an ag operation, doesn't teach you about crops, insects, or all the other parts of of the business, and where most operators want to see a thousand hours of ag time to hire and insure you (if you're insurable)...you come away from an ag school with nothing, really.
Getting into the ag business is a conundrum, a bit of a catch 22. You can't get hired without a thousand hours of ag, but can't get a thousand hours of ag unless you're hired.
Operators want good stick and rudder skills. That doesn't mean simply keeping the ball in the middle during a turn. It means using the full operating envelope of the aircraft. That may mean right to the buffet, and it also means being able to work the aircraft when it's maxed out weight-wise, and performance-wise. It's one thing to maneuver when you've got performance to spare and a cushion of altitude; it's another to do so when you have no extra available performance and no altitude. Remember as a student pilot turning base at 500' and being told never to steepen that turn, so you don't stall-spin? You may be doing steep turns to the buffet every 30 seconds, or so, at 75', all day long, and in an airplane loaded to gross, in the wind and turbulence at times, around obstacles.
Short field and soft field aren't what are taught to student pilots. Most ag airstrips are relatively short, and many are also soft or rough. Operating off dirt roads, fields, and other places isn't uncommon in some operations. Neither is flying out to a field and landing next to it, in order to walk the crop, inspect for insects, etc. All depends on the job. Stick and rudder skills means being able to operate that maxed out airplane in and out of short and soft fields, with obstacles all day long, crosswind, or not.
The traditional method of getting hired involved coming to work loading chemical, and back when we flagged, walking the fields and flagging...standing on the edge of a field being sprayed and waving a flag for the airplane to use as a line-up reference. It may mean mixing chemical, fixing tractors, repairing aircraft, cleaning airplanes, etc...often for several years. Gradually one is moved into one of the smaller aircraft (used to be something like a supercub with a Sorenson belly rig, today more likely a Pawnee), where one goes out after the day and sprays out "rinsate" or the wastewater from flushing the spray systems. This, under close supervision. Eventually comes spraying things that won't bring much liability, like pesticides...and eventually working into a position where one sprays herbicides (the riskiest to spray, for liability).
Some operators need a body badly, have a simple, easy aircraft like the pawnee, and will put you in one. Others won't. Most others won't. Today with many operators having gone to turbine equipment, especially air tractors, there's a double block to putting you in that equipment. The aircraft are sensitive and decidedly not particularly stable, and they're expensive. An air tractor will eat your lunch if you're not ready for it, faster than you can see it coming...or it can be a nicely performing, hard working, dependable aircraft. A brand new guy in an air tractor, though, is very nearly begging for trouble. I've seen very experienced pilots who forgot to lock the tailwheel on the 802 very quickly end up in the weeds, and the airplane isn't especially forgiving like some ag airplanes, when it comes to poor handling.
I attended an ag school...not two weeks like some. I did six months of fairly intensive training that covered everything from maintenance to chemicals, entomology, crop science, etc. The school is no longer around, like most ag schools. When all was said and done, the job placement consisted of "Start driving and ask every ag operator you find, for a job."
I never knew there were so many ways to say "no."
There's no substitute for showing up on an operators front door step. If you have a well known pedigree, some operators will hire from a resume, but it's not common. Nearly everything is done in the business with a handshake, and you've got to be standing there to do that. I can tell most of what I need to know about a pilot standing and talking to him, and a flight with him just confirms what I already know. You'll find that most operators are the same way. A lot of them will go confirm it, too.
Bear in mind that the flying part is the tip of the ice berg. It's the smallest part of the job. People watch the ag operator and think to themselves "that looks like fun, I could do that." You probably could. It's not rocket science (but there's little margin for error). It's just that the fun flying part doesn't stay that way for long. It becomes hard work, and it's the smallest and best part of the job.
Someone on one of these forums recently opined that they should be paid for their time looking up weather and flightplanning...but in the ag business there's typically little or no pay for any other duties, and it's the "any other duties" that comprise most of the the job. Whether it's standing in an alfalfa field swinging a ridiculous looking butterfly net to catch and count insects, or visiting with Farmer Bailey at his field to make a chemical recommendation or crop evaluation, or replacing a cylinder on an engine or repairing a nozzle on the spray boom...there's a lot to be done that goes well beyond simply flying.
It's not required, but strongly preferred that the ag pilot is also a mechanic. In the ag business, often as not, if you break it, you fix it. Or, if you're in the general vicinity and it breaks, you fix it. Or it if breaks at all, you fix it. You get the idea. Even if you don't have your A&P, it's typically expected, or again strongly preferred, that you're capable and knowledgeable enough to do the work.
How to get the job, then...be qualified, be available, visit everyone, and eventually someone will hire you. Simple.
A few years back I was flying a turbine Dromader. A local guy really wanted to fly the airplane. He had a thousand hours or so of conventional gear time in his RV-3, but no "heavy" conventional gear time. We told him he needed to get more experience under his belt. He had a few thousand total, but nothing in ag aircraft. He asked if getting some time in an ag truck would help. It's a start, said we.
He found a job in an ag wagon towing gliders. He was training, got airborne on his first tow, and then put the airplane through a fence after he bounced the landing and groundlooped, on his first landing. He came back to us and wanted a job. But you crashed the airplane, said we. It's okay, said he. He reasoned that as he was still training and wasn't actually working for that operator, it shouldn't count against him. He couldn't understand why his thousand hours of tailwheel time didn't help him. He also couldn't understand that he'd just ruined a guy's livelihood.
Get qualified: the ag school is a start. Not much of one, but it's a start. Be mechanically in tune with your equipment. It's a hard-use job, and things need repair, upkeep, adjustment. Know that you're going to get dirty. Get good, solid, intimate stick and rudder skills; don't fly the airplane. Wear it. Find someone to hire you to get some experience, and this may take no small effort on your part. Be prepared to sacrifice your year's unemployment for a few months of ag work...it's seasonal, and it makes having another job very hard. Be prepared to travel. Be prepared to live in rural farming areas for short periods, and be prepared to have no idea what you'll be bringing in at any given time. Being qualified means a lot of preparation.
Be available. Any time, any where.
Visit everyone. That means getting in your car and driving. Days, weeks, whatever it takes. You stop when you have a job. Done.
You'll find that some operators are more interested in talking shop with you about a job when you fly to their operation. Bear in mind that ag operators don't work bankers hours, and you play hit or miss on finding them at the airport. Ag operators also tend to start early, and most tend to go to bed early. Don't make the mistake of interrupting them at work or at rest. One sure way to not be invited back.
Volumes could be written on getting hired in the ag business, and have been written on getting hired in the ag business. It's a tough business to break into.
Ill Mitch
I like my oatmeal lumpy
- Joined
- Jan 22, 2005
- Posts
- 675
Sam is the best ag pilot in the whole wide world. He says so himself.
The same tired statements, even the photographs on his web site are the same ones he had in his brochures over 20 years ago, and they weren't truthful then. I see he's advertising as being experienced and knowledgable in aerial firefighting now. He's not.
His claims that students are hireable, that he has job placement, that he's this or that or his program this or that, or that he even has the aircraft he advertises, are untrue.
The photographs of his facilities are actually pictures of his old place in Oklahoma...before he was run out of the country and fled to Belize. He floated his program from down there for a time without great success. He claims to be the biggest and oldest school; neither claim is true.
His claims that students are hireable, that he has job placement, that he's this or that or his program this or that, or that he even has the aircraft he advertises, are untrue.
The photographs of his facilities are actually pictures of his old place in Oklahoma...before he was run out of the country and fled to Belize. He floated his program from down there for a time without great success. He claims to be the biggest and oldest school; neither claim is true.
I cannot belive that Sam Riggs is still operating his ag-pilot con game. I am guessing that the picture on his web site of the Cessna 140 must be a bit old, as I would guess that it is the same 140 that he crashed at the Belmopan Airstrip in Belize. He hooked a power line on short final in the dark. I heard that he went broke with the hotel in Corazol, and then had a mysterious fire that burned it down. I wondered where he had crawled off to after Belize kicked his a$$.
Ill Mitch
I like my oatmeal lumpy
- Joined
- Jan 22, 2005
- Posts
- 675
Supposedly, he went to Texas.
Sam's only fire experience took place in my presence. A fire began on a neighboring property to his, and he dropped water on it from a pawnee...in 100 gallon drops using the dump lever in his airplane. Beyond that, he has no SEAT experience, and has never been involved with, trained anyone in, or provided job placement for a large air tanker operation. Further, his reference to the Cherokee Six for a parts or "swamper" aircraft clearly points at Aero Union, and I'd challenge him to show any connection with the company, in any way, shape, or form. His information is outdated, and tired.
I've never heard of him advertising any connection to domestic or foreign intelligence. The closest he ever came to any operation at the state level was the numerous appearances in court during law suits. He was a cadet at a private military school, as a youth.
I've run into few people in this world as vain as Sam. Truly a legend in his own mind.
I've never heard of him advertising any connection to domestic or foreign intelligence. The closest he ever came to any operation at the state level was the numerous appearances in court during law suits. He was a cadet at a private military school, as a youth.
I've run into few people in this world as vain as Sam. Truly a legend in his own mind.
Agpilot 27
Member
- Joined
- Jul 21, 2006
- Posts
- 12
stearmann4
Well-known member
- Joined
- Aug 12, 2005
- Posts
- 46
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