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After 737 Overrun - Spanish CRM Not So Impressive

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johnsonrod

Well-known member
Joined
Feb 25, 2006
Posts
4,218
Not sure how much of this story I believe. It's no surprise that CRM is challenging in many cultures with Captain-dominated cockpits and fresh, pay-for-training newbie FOs with less than 1000 hours flying sophisticated airplanes and approaches. Sounds like the accidents you read about in China and Korea - nobody questions the "all knowing" Captain. Safe ending, but I hope this Captain was fired. It was an Air Europa 737-800 operating on a charter to the Canary Islands.

Lanzarote 737 overran as first officer struggled to cope – investigators

Spanish investigators have found that an overbearing captain helped create the circumstances for an unstable approach, which led an Air Europa Boeing 737-800 to overrun at Lanzarote.

The aircraft overflew the Runway 21 threshold at 55m (180ft) at 175kt (324km/h), with the flaps deployed at just 25° owing to automated flap-loading limitations.

It travelled halfway along the runway - which was wet - before touching down some 1,300m beyond the threshold. While the brakes were applied immediately, thrust reversers were not activated for 13s, by which time the 737 was barely 200m from the end of the runway.

The aircraft, which had arrived from Glasgow, overran at 94m and crossed a 60m stopway before coming to a halt just a metre from the jet-blast barrier, next to the perimeter fence.

Spanish investigation agency CIAIAC discovered that the 737 was originally to land on Runway 03, and the flying first officer had programmed this descent into the flight management computer.

But the captain opted instead for a Runway 21 approach, without consulting the first officer, forcing him to prepare a different landing procedure without much time. The aircraft, at the time, was at 14,600ft (4,453m) and 56km (30.5nm) from the runway.

While the first officer tried, with difficulty, to reprogramme the flight computer, the captain prompted him to keep descending. "[The first officer's] lack of assertiveness to tell the captain that he did not agree with what he was being forced to do is undoubtedly a contributing factor to the genesis of the incident," said CIAIAC.

It said the captain "made every decision" but "at no time" asked the first officer's opinion. Despite being aware of the "worsening" situation, and "undoubtedly" noticing the inability of the first officer to cope after the runway switch, the captain did not touch the controls or the autopilot.
"During the approachthe first officer was at times overwhelmed by work, while the captain limited himself to telling the first officer that he had to descend more, without actually intervening directly," said CIAIAC's report on the 31 October 2008 event.

While the captain had 8,388h on type (more than 10 times that of the first officer), CIAIAC said he decided to continue the approach "in spite of the presence of a multitude of indications that suggested or required that the manoeuvre be stopped".

These indications included the aircraft's high energy state as well as repeated alerts from the enhanced ground-proximity warning system, over a 28s period, as it descended below 900ft.

Although the aircraft sustained minor tyre damage in the incident, none of the 80 occupants was injured.
 
We cleared the runway in LAX a few days ago and heard south tower frantically & repeatedly calling for TACA 522. When they finally checked on, controller cleared them to land runway 25LEFT..over-annunciating runway assignment. A few minutes later, we heard ground give them a phone # to call for a "possible pilot deviation" (which ground had to repeat 3X). My guess is they lined up on 25R erroneously.
Not sure what my point with that anecdote is, but I have heard that latin-American countries (ie Mexico/central/south america) still have the "CA is God" culture as well. One can only speculate if the f/o tried to say anything at all, while knowing what the actual clearance was. My theory is that I've heard that in Latin America, being an airline pilot is still considered to be a profession which commands much respect..unlike in the U.S., therefore the CA is the ulimate authority figure. In a land where machismo is ingrained in the culture generally, I can see where this status can lead pilots to gain an overdeveloped ego and perhaps arrogance; both of which often compromises safety.

On a seperate note, I think it's a bit ironic that we U.S. born-and-raised pilots a few yrs ago had to pay $2 to have "English Proficient" slapped on our certs to fly internationally.
 
Did I read that correctly that the fo had about 800TT? I was still scaring the ******************** outta myself in a Duchess when I was around that level. The captain really did overload that FO, who was most likely too intimidated to speak up. Very poor CRM all around. I don't speak with any authority, but I can see how the culture could still be "the captain is GOD and not to be questioned". During the limited flying I've done south of the border, I have noticed we were treated like total rock stars by everyone we interacted with. Here in the US, I've been mistaken for a bellhop on more than one occasion.
 
The aircraft overflew the Runway 21 threshold at 55m (180ft) at 175kt (324km/h), with the flaps deployed at just 25° owing to automated flap-loading limitations.
Approximately what would a normal altitude and airspeed for a B737 in this configuration over the threshold be?
 
50 feet. Airspeed depends on weight. However, if the flaps were blown back to 25, way to freakin fast.
 
Did I read that correctly that the fo had about 800TT?

They were talking about time on type. No mention of total time

While the captain had 8,388h on type (more than 10 times that of the first officer)

Though it is not uncommon in the EU to have a pilots first professional gig be in the right seat of a 737 or 320 at fairly low time.
 
They were talking about time on type. No mention of total time



Though it is not uncommon in the EU to have a pilots first professional gig be in the right seat of a 737 or 320 at fairly low time.

Dammit! I didn't catch that even on my second reading. I guess reading comprehension isn't my finest skill.
 
50 feet. Airspeed depends on weight. However, if the flaps were blown back to 25, way to freakin fast.

Doh! My old CFI Pythagoras reminded me that just about every airplane on a 3 degree glidepath will overfly the threshold at about 40-50'.

170 knots sees really hot for a big transport airplane to my untutored mind.
 
We cleared the runway in LAX a few days ago and heard south tower frantically & repeatedly calling for TACA 522. When they finally checked on, controller cleared them to land runway 25LEFT..over-annunciating runway assignment. A few minutes later, we heard ground give them a phone # to call for a "possible pilot deviation" (which ground had to repeat 3X). My guess is they lined up on 25R erroneously.
Not sure what my point with that anecdote is, but I have heard that latin-American countries (ie Mexico/central/south america) still have the "CA is God" culture as well. One can only speculate if the f/o tried to say anything at all, while knowing what the actual clearance was. My theory is that I've heard that in Latin America, being an airline pilot is still considered to be a profession which commands much respect..unlike in the U.S., therefore the CA is the ulimate authority figure. In a land where machismo is ingrained in the culture generally, I can see where this status can lead pilots to gain an overdeveloped ego and perhaps arrogance; both of which often compromises safety.

On a seperate note, I think it's a bit ironic that we U.S. born-and-raised pilots a few yrs ago had to pay $2 to have "English Proficient" slapped on our certs to fly internationally.

Western European pilots are as well trained, if not better trained than US pilots. I have an ATP in both the US and JAA; taken separately; and the US exams are simple compared to the US.

We fly every day in non- English speaking countries and you are correct that there is a huge issue with languages. Try JFK on any normal day and the crews from many foreign airlines are incapable of expressing themselves in understandable English.

This is a huge danger for crews and a huge nightmare for ATC.

Try Russian aerospace and you will understand the dangers- but to say the pilots are inferior is false.
 
Doh! My old CFI Pythagoras reminded me that just about every airplane on a 3 degree glidepath will overfly the threshold at about 40-50'.

170 knots sees really hot for a big transport airplane to my untutored mind.

Tire speed is probably 195 knots.
 

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