Aerial Firefighting

[stmi0203]

Does anyone have info on dropping smokejumpers/retardant or flying lead aircraft? I've checked out www.afia.com and the Forestry Service websites. Where can I find info on contractors? I'd also like to know what a typical day is, QOL stuff, and what pilot jobs people have had prior to aerial firefighting. Is this a stepping stone or more of a career?

 

[ATR-DRIVR]

avbug would be the one to ask those questions.

 

[vossdr1]

Indeed, PM avbug. He's DA MAN when it comes to aerial fire suppression.

 

[propsarebest]

I know todo that kind of flying, u need to be carded by the OAS division of the Forset service, and to to take the checkride fro the card, u need 1500 hoursTT. In a former life, I was involved in this sorta thing, please pm me if ya wanna know more.

 

[Nick5600]

Tpdc-3

Rhoades Aviation holds a contract for hauling smoke jumpers with a turbo prop DC-3. I doubt they are hiring as they have sold off just about every aircraft they have. Last I heard they aren't even operating 121 anymore! At one point they were some what good company to work for, but then again that was in the 80s. I belief the director of Ops. is still Jack Travis.
Hope that helps.

 

[rchcfi]

Try this.... http://www.oas.gov/source/airqbe.asp. It will list the aircraft carded by the OAS and the companies that fly them.

Cheers!

 

[DC-4]

Hello stmi0203 just to give you some help with your questions. First off there are no longer any large airtankers flying in the US execpt for CL-215's on state contracts and 5 P-3A's from Aero-Union. As of May 10th of 2004 the USFS in all there wisdom primarily due to Tony Kern and Mark Ray grounded the fleet. AS for lead plane positions well there being chewed up pretty quickly by out of work tanker pilots that more than meet the USFS minimums of 200 hours below 200agl. As for the smoke jumping thing I do not know I never did it I was always on a large retardent bird. QOL well its what you make of it, good news is you make good money you work 180 to 90 day contracts a year take the rest off or do something else part time in the winter. Most of us would go back and work in the hangar on the planes because all the pilots for the company I worked for had to be A&P's, most places like that alot in there pilots. Most pilots came from flying air attack a couple seasons and those jobs are out there you just need to look but there filling fast since the season is around the corner. This is not a stepping stone job it pays to well and you end up loving it way to much to leave I mean some do but not many must of us stay the duration of our careers it gets in your blood and never leaves. Go to WWW.airtanker.com that is AAP's web page that is our union and all the contractors info is there to is a great site to get information. Also rumor is that the USFS realizes what they did and there is so much pressure to get the tankers back up from the states that they are going to put out 20 bids for tankers this year but the bids are so under priced some places are not even going to bid. Anyways hope that helps a little I know information is hard to come by I know when I was trying to get my seat no one would help so if there is anything I can do or point you in the right direction to get you in the industry do not hesitate to pm me.

 

[MTpilot]

All the tankers are contracts, and not flying as stated above. The guys who fly jumpers here are Forest service employees. (mso). 1500 to do anything for the Forest Circus. Good Luck

 

[414Flyer]

If you want to break into aerial firefighting, the way to do it is to find a contractor who supplies "air attack" aircraft to USFS or BLM.

If you want to get into a tanker, about the only way it is going to happen for you is to fly ag for awhile and find a company that has Single Engine Air Tanker.

USFS pilot positions are pretty highly sought after these days, and you better have a fair amount of fire experience to even think about being competitive.

I have been involved in wildland firefighting since 2002. Air attack pilot, ground pounder, tanker copilot, and probably air attack this summer.

 

[DC-4]

414flyer I am guessing here but if you were on T-65 you were with Butler. I have heard a rummor that Norman is bidding for the 7's and one 4 to go back. If so any chance you will get your seat back.

 

[moving2vegas]

I heard that Butler is bidding also

I thought 65 was a TBM ship. I could be wrong, some of the companies have loose ties with one another and ownership changes occasionally. I'm sure 414flyer will have the low down.

 

[414Flyer]

TBM and Butler are sister companies, pretty much under the same ownership. Might as well be two divisions of the same company.

I know they submitted their Douglas tankers for the contracts, but it really does not sound too positive for them. You can count on Aero Union getting some of those contracts for the P-3s but for anyone else, hard to say.

I have been pretty pessimistic about me getting back in a LAT in the near future, since I was the newest employee, and in the oldest plane (Tanker 65 is ex USAAF, Navy and Marines, 1943 model). USFS is still demanding an Operational Service Life limit, even though Boeing (holder of the type certificates) says there is not one as long as the planes are maintained and inspected properly. Maybe somebody has come up with one, but I dont know.

Its too bad too, because I think some of the captains at TBM/Butler were going to retire in the next couple years even if all the tankers were still on, and I could have gotten typed soon, and possibly tanker captain at some point.

 

[DC-4]

Yeah I know the feeling, I was on the old doug as well but I guess they do not want to hear what Boeing had to say in thier letter about the OSL of them. Just more retoric from the forest circus. Now we get to watch the parnership of DynCorp and Aero Union. It makes me sick to my stomach the company that did the inspecting is now getting into running LAT. With the airfame that is most likly to come apart the P-3A. I mean when they pulled Waldmans aircraft in the hanfar it was so close to an inflight disasembly it was scary. But I guess that does not matter.

 

[414Flyer]

I have a great song a former C-130A tanker operator sent me, called the Forest Circus I can email out. It makes fun of the USFS and some of their prescribed burns which turned into big fires..pretty funny.

Regarding the OSL, its puts the USFS in an interesting position, since they themselves still operate some DC-3 turboprops for smokejumpers.
The OSL is going to have to apply to them too, unless of course they want to make their own rules, which is what they have been doing lately.

I was with Waldman briefly in Silver City last year. His P-3, and the DC-4 I was on were to be based there together. We were, part of a day until everything was cancelled.

Lots of Lockheed products get wing cracks. P-2, P-3, C-130, C-141....

 

[avbug]

Lockheed never built a good wing.

 

[cargopod]

Whats up with H&P ?? Are the still in operation or gone now?? Alot of great people worked there[or work there].. I bet the Hanging Tree is not the same now..

 

[DC-4]

The last I had heard from a couple pilots I knew was that they had closed the doors. The Hawkins side of the company wanted for a long time to seperate. So when Gene decided it was time Hawkins did not argue except that all the copters are being sold too.. All the aircraft are for sale on different web sites and just about all the employees are unemployed or doing something else. Its actually really really sad. However there are many who argue its fitting since they blame them for us being out of work. Considering in the last 25 years all LAT inflight breakups have been from H&P. But none the less its sad to see what has happened to all those good hard working people up there.

 

[avbug]

That's quite a cheap potshot...consider the C-119 breakups which were never the fault of the aircraft, but of the pilots who overcontrolled them. It's also a flat out lie, as all the inflight breakups didn't occur in H&P aircraft. In fact, the other C-130 breakup in Pearl Blossom wasn't H&P at all, and was almost identical in nature. HVS for that one.

The suggestion that H&P shoulders the blame for the industry woes was one bantied about by Aero Union as they tried to crush others to make themselves come out ahead. It was a dirty tactic, and one built upon the graves of those most recently lost.

The truth is that H&P was doing more wing inspections and closer inspections on the C-130's than Butler, with stripping the wings every few weeks for frequent and detailed ultrasonic inspections.

It's also worth noting that while the first C-130 breakup was Hemet Valley Flying Service, T-130 was a Hemet Valley airplane. Doesn't quite all add up when you consider the facts, does it?

 

[cargopod]

Yeah not all in flight break up were H&P.. Wow that is a harsh un informed statement..DC-4. I dont want to start a bashing of a company i worked for or the tanker industry as a whole.. I just was wondering about some of the people i used to work with.. And if the company is still in buss.or not.
The list of crashes is long and effects every company that has been in the large tanker industry ill bet..
if a wing comes off or you hit a mountian its all the same for the crew.
I would not be scared to fly a H&P bird today and was not scared when i worked there..
But with all the layoffs and people flying west i bet happy hour at the Hangin tree is not the same..

 

[MTpilot]

I believe the military had a couple of C130A's breakup in flight as well. I think thats part of why they were available to tank in the first place. Correct me if I'm wrong.

 

[propsarebest]

H&P is having a FIRESALE!!!

EVERYTHING is for sale!!

Check out http://www.courtesyaircraft.com


The USAF DID have a couple of failures on the A model C-130, thats why they were rid of and why the B model came out.

 

[DC-4]

Ok First off I was not bashing H&P. Second off to say I am uninformed is well I will not say that in such a public forum. Third off I was one of 10 + individuls standing in a hargar with Mr. Gene Powers when he was getting his ass chewed by unnamed individules. Avbug I have no idea who you are but since you called me out and basicly and said I do not know what I am talking about I invite you to pm me and give me your phone number, I am more than happy to discuss with you the information I know. Also to say Norman at butler was taking shortcuts on airframe inspectons is crazy, the reason I say this is the boeing engineers and two other companies that I know of that work with them would wonder how they were finding wing areas to do large repairs that require boing to get involved if they were not doing thier inspections. Also the thing you mentiond about Aero Union well just wait there is more to come with Dyncorp and them since Areo Union is now unofficially for sale and rummor has it that Dyncorp is trying to get P-3's. Also if you read my post that I was bashing H&P I said that 5 breakups not all of them in history I know hemit had some the airforce had some ect ect. However H&P did have 5. And your right its not all H&P's fault. And just like in the past here is a couple guys I assume avbug your a pilot, arguing when infact the person's to be fighting with is I name Tony Kern, Dale Bosworth, Rose Davis, and forgive me I for get his name he is secretary of agriculture. Look I worked hard to get in this industry, and I watched those men die over colorado in T-123 so forgive me if I sound angry someone has told me I do not know what I am talking about. But seriously avbug pm me so we can discuss this because there is more to the story but not in a public form is it to discuss thanks all that read this and again I am sorry if I offended some of you I never ment to Because those that I know that worked at H&P were top notch people.

 

[cargopod]

DC-4
were you flying the fire that T123 went down on?

 

[avbug]

I'm not certain what there is to discuss. I wasn't there in Colorado when Rick and Milt were killed. I knew the airplane, though; I did my 4Y type rating in it. I was in that airplane in the field. I flew with both Rick and Milt...when Milt came to GEY, it was my car he used to get around. I spent time working on the hangar floor with Rick, I flew with him during his training and carding. I was also in T-130. I worked on all the airplanes, I flew them. I took my flight engineer turboprop ride in that airplane. I flew fires with Steve and Mike, and I checked our Craig in several company aircraft. I worked with all of them, side by side in Greybull, and in the field.

In other words, when it came to these aircraft and their maintenance at home and on the road, I was there. You want to assign blame, blame me. My fingerprints were all over them, as were my wrench marks, inside very panel, and on both yokes and each switch on the FE panel.

Your assertion on a public forum that the only breakups that ever occured in the fire service were H&P aircraft, and that H&P is responsible for the demise of the industry, is a very false allegation. False, and wrong. You know it, I know it, and I don't particularly care for it to be bantied about as something that bears any credibility on any public forum. Including here. I've seen this garbage beat to death on the AAP forum, and that's exactly what it is. Trash talk.

I never made any statements about Butler failing to perform inspections. To insinuate otherwise is also a bald-faced lie. I said no such thing. Butler/TBM ran good equipment and hired good people.

I'm familiar with Tony Kern. While he was still teaching at USAFA, he came to GEY and gave us a presentation at company request. An industry safety expert, he held himself out to be, with a litany of books and accolades. I didn't care for him then, told his so, and sat at lunch with him. I told him that his commentary applied to airline or corporate flying, but that he was far off the mark when it came to the type of flying we did. I suggestedhe might seek a better understanding of the business before trying to categorize us, judge us, or address the issues he raised. Further, if we tried to operate within his own narrowly defined parameters of what constitutes a safe airman or airmanship, none of us would ever fly. As it turned out, he made it his quest to see that that happened.

I would dearly love to fly a large air tanker again, but that's not going to happen. I pointed out some time ago what I thought was going to happen with dyncorp and was laughed off the stage. Well, guess what...

Presently I'm flying a turbine SEAT for the summer work, in addition to other work full time and part time, and I take a keen interest in the fire service, tankers, safety, and the fate and future of the industry.

I'm disturbed by any public allegations of wrong doing from the industry on these public forums. Any public forum. The rumors and misunderstandings about what has occured in the industry are legion, especially among the aviation community at large. Attempting to perpetuate garbage such as your allegations about H&P, speaking ill of the dead as it were, contributes nothing. Such material does not fly. At the AAP site, I saw quick attempts to villify H&P in an attempt to save other's bacon...make one guy look bad and take the fall, then perhaps everybody else can keep working. But it didn't work, it was foolish, and it only hurt the industry.

This spring in Boise, during a discussion at the 3-day SEAT conference, I brought up an example of communication and the reason for the current Fire Traffic Area concept that's in use. I cited the loss of Larry and Lars as the reason that this system has come into being as it is today, and as an example of potential for failure to communicate and observe the new(er) protocols. I did this to punctuate a point in light of the fact that many newer and inexperienced faces were in the crowd...faces that weren't familiar with even our more recent losses in the industry.

An individual with a very short fuze nearby began ranting and raving about that comment, and ran to my table after the meeting break was announced. Right in my face, he fumed and hollered and made quite a scene. Turns out he's a CDF pilot, just wanting a "rational" discussion. I suggested he back off, and he finally left the conference and didn't come back. Very unprofessional. I expected more from another member of the tanker community, but since the contract cancellations, I've been deeply disapointed at the leve of decorum and professionalism shown. The depths of this disappointment is manifest in just such comments as we see here now...comments condemning in this case H&P for all the woes, and false allegations.

An industry that cannot stand together cannot stand...and for now, very few are left standing. The business is filled with, or has been filled with, men of high caliber for whom I have great respect as aviators, firefighters, and as men. Steve Waas was among those, and I could have no greater respect than I had for Mike Davis. I look up to many in the business, and I sincerely hope that many may one day return to work. However, for the remainder, those who bicker and fight and condemn, I have little sympathy. I bought rolls of green ribbon, wore my own in solidarity and support. I wrote letters, made calls, did interviews for the press. But my disgust at the attitudes that became manifest, the childishness, the condemning, the false charges and rumors that flew, eventually caused me to take off that ribbon and trample it under boot in the retardant and mud.

My full support to the industry, but tearing it down from within, claiming things which are not, and condemning those who were every bit a part of us all, sickens me to the pit of my stomach, and of that, I can have no part.

 

[DC4boy]

I'm kinda sorry I missed this one.....

 

[DC4boy]

I saw it. It sucked. Kern sucks, move on.