Aca Ta

[sideshow]

The first roadshow is over....or is it. After the 2pm show was cancelled the 6pm show ran until 10pm when we were told we had to leave because the hotel said times up.

Facts of the TA

1. 7.5% pay cut at effective date for all Captains and CRJ FOs. FRJ and J-41 FOs return to pre May 9th, 2003 rates.

2. 2% increase per year.

3. 70 seat rates IF 70 seaters are called for in contract with United and this was stated as CRJ-700s. If for some reason ERJs were part of any flying it was unclear. Rates were 6% greater than 50 seaters but ONLY for Captains. No increase in FO pay.

4. Some type of profit sharing directed into 401k based on operating margins for the company. Does not kick in unless margin greater than 8% and total company outlay over 5 years is capped at 12 million.

5. Preferential bidding....maybe....maybe not.....maybe....maybe not. If the company AND the union want and agree on it then it might happen. 18 month minimum to get implemented at best case.

6. Temporary reductions in conflict pay until preferential bidding or 570 days or ..............some other conditions..........

Some of the interesting quotes from the show.......

Q. "What were some of the toughest issues?"
A. "When we asked about executive compensation.
The executives (read Kerry and Tom) didn't like that.
So we concentrated on what WE could do." (read cut pilot pay)

"Well let me tell you, this is way better than what the company originally wanted" -- Wow, really, you mean this could be worse than what the company wanted?

"The Skywest contract is parasitic...."

"Air Wisconsin's TA is much worse" -- I believe they are ALPA

"MESA, MESA, MESA" -- I believe they are ALPA

"Comair looks great but it's unrealistic to think they do not have concessions coming from Delta"

"The company proposed Trans States pay and American Eagle work rules" -- I would think less of management if they didn't make such a first salvo, in fact, that's better than I would have thought they would start with. THAT'S THEIR JOB.

"We weren't really negotiating with management on this, we were negotiating with United" -- Oh really?

"Believe me, the only people as upset as the pilots about this are the management, Tom and Kerry" -- that is just about verbatim

But with a TA that was unanimously agreed to by the negotiating comittee AND the MEC, no one should be surprised the presentation is slanted that way. NOT ONE PERSON dissented on this, that is really representative of the pilot group.

Now since the Q & A was cut short there will be more questions but some that went unanswered.

"What if we vote NO?"

"How much pie are we giving up?" 9 million, 15 million???

"Why?, concessions are in vogue?"

MORE TO COME

 

[TSA ERJ]

Just to give you an idea where the new pay rates stand...I crunched some numbers and your new captain pay rates would be identical to Trans States pay rates and your F/O rates are very similar without any cut. Trans States annual increase is 2.5% where your TA allows for a 2% annual raise. I'm not trying to say anything here or rub anything in, I was just trying to give you an idea where the new rates fall and how they compare to TSA since we were referenced in your review of the roadshow.

 

[Skyward]

"Comair looks great but it's unrealistic to think they do not have concessions coming from Delta"

Sorry to burst your bubble, but there is no way Comair will give up anything from there contract.

"The Skywest contract is parasitic...."

Yep! SkyWest needs to do what is right and vote it down!

 

[sideshow]

Sorry to burst your bubble, but there is no way Comair will give up anything from there contract.

You are not bursting my bubble, I just listed some of the quotes from our Union leadership. I do not necessarily agree with them. However, "no way" sounds like "never" and in life there are few absolutes. Except that I think you meant to say "their" instead of "there", perhaps not.

 

[Skyward]

Except that I think you meant to say "their" instead of "there", perhaps not.

When I was a sophomore in high school my English teacher said that if you haven’t gotten it by now you never will. I guess he was right.

 

[flaps30]

No way !

If you think Comair would even consider taking pay cuts then you don't understand our pilot group. We don't roll over ! not for delta mailine trying to stuff furloughees on us, not for a pay cut we struck 89 days for. They wont even bring it up because they know they will lose more in productivity. We all realize Comair growth will slow soon, with the likes of other DCI pilots flying for free. So we will hold what we got.
I hope the ACA guys realize that you are being snowed. I can't believe you anyone would vote for one !

 

[RJPilott]

sideshow, please post what you posted here over on our ALPA message boards so many of our members that dont know about this board can look at it. thanks

still voting NO!

 

[ACE]

I second Flaps30's comments. Vote No! Don't lower the bar. ACA will then be on the same par with Mesa if they except that crap.

 

[smellthejeta]

I don't know how much y'all are hanging onto the 8% profit margin in order to get a bonus check, but one thing to keep in mind is that 8% profit is about the most you can ever expect any airline to show. Translation: If the company is making an 8% profit margin, they should be doing more than cutting you a small check.

 

[Diesel]

If this TA passes will united vote yes on aca's new proposal? NO

If this TA were to pass does this keep more pilots from getting furloughed? NO

If this TA were to pass would furloughed pilots come back? NO

If this TA were to pass is ACA going to have 70 seats tomorrow? NO

If this TA were to pass is managment going to take a cut too? NO

Vote No for the TA. The roadshows suck and provide no information.

 

[sideshow]

Unfortunately I can see the union and company scare tactics are already having an effect. What appeared to be vocal NO is looking like a muted YES. How anyone could attend a roadshow and think, yeah, I'm convinced we have to do this for FINANCIAL reasons for the company is beyond me.

Make no doubt about the union presenting all of the gloom and doom for the company and saying only the company is more upset about this.

I would have more respect for them if they just said there is no reason why, the cut is 7.5% and $.15 of per diem. Thanks for coming and please remember to vote. Instead it was 4+ hours of conjecture, speculation and gloom and doom.

 

[AWACoff]

Interesting,
Our union is saying that your tentative TA (I think I can say that) is "worse" than ours. Who the heck is lying and why is it that it's our own union "leadership"? ALPA would never say one thing to AWAC and the exact opposite to ACA...would they??? Nah, never.
Good luck ACA

 

[embraerdriver]

comair guys and gals,.......HOLD YOUR GROUND DON"T CAVE!

 

[ACE]

Comair has not been approached with anything except trying to cut back on APU usage. Which we all are gladly doing.

 

[Beavis]

ALL TA'S GET PASSED.......

Other than Comair, which I'm not sure if they ever voted down a sub-standard TA, or just struck....NOBODY seems to reject a TA. Mesa's passed, Air Whisky passed their concessionary TA, All 3 USAIR WO's passed first the J4J, then concessions. (PDT and ALG did first vote no on J4J, but were pushed into the corner when PSA agreed to it). That is the way it goes at the regionals! One big problem is our lack of proper representation in these matters from ALPA National. We just dont have the support. And, lets face it, pilots are so worried about having to find a different job that we roll over and accept anything pushed on us. They put it in front of us, we b!tch and moan about it, talk tough, and then roll over and vote it in. There are just too many people afraid of standing up and saying no to overcome the hardliners. It happens every time.

So.....ACA's TA will pass, I'm sure. As will the rest of us, when sh!t is pushed on us.

 

[ACE]

Comair voted down the first TA before the strike and the second TA during the strike. We accepted the third one. It was not what we wanted, but a significant improvement to the old contract. Furthermore, we were at the point of diminishing returns. Speaking from expierance, when you vote a TA down, yes you are going out on limb. However, you cannot just roll over and take it up the a$$. When the Comair pilots voted down the TA's and went out on strike, we knew we might not have a job to go back too. We were willing to make that stand and will do it again. It's a matter of pride and setting standards, not lowing the bar. Everyone is hurt when the bar is lowered. Mesa started this, look at the trickle effect. I hope ACA will be the first pilot group in this spiriling downturn to have some guts. Take a stand!

 

[rightrudder]

When the Comair pilots voted down the TA's and went out on strike, we knew we might not have a job to go back too. We were willing to make that stand and will do it again.

Yes, but this is a much different world and industry than it was in the spring of 2001. Most folks on strike could have easily found employment elsewhere if there was no job to return to. Not so now.

 

[sideshow]

Interesting,
Our union is saying that your tentative TA (I think I can say that) is "worse" than ours. Who the heck is lying and why is it that it's our own union "leadership"? ALPA would never say one thing to AWAC and the exact opposite to ACA...would they??? Nah, never.
Good luck ACA

Our union "leadership" sent out a letter stating that if we do nothing we are telling United (as pilots) that we no longer want their business.

Air Wisconsins accepted TA was definitely presented as worse than our TA and we were told our union was in daily contact with AWACs about what they were hearing from United/Bain. My understanding is that AWAC at least got some things they wanted like a commuter clause.

Every pilot group and contract is different but ALPA is behind just about all of the TAs for the United express flying. I guess they figure if United took huge cuts then share the, uh, wealth.

 

[propjob27]

Unfortunately for ACA, and the rest of the commuter industry, there is going to be more pressure to accept these horrible TA's once ours at SkyWest passes.

I've cast my NO vote of course, but the company's scare tactics and the overall ignorance of our pilot group ensure at least 51% YES votes. June 10th will be a sad day for everyone.

 

[sideshow]

At least Skywest has an 18 month deal and while some think the management at Skywest will just do whatever they want because there is not a union, history shows that Skywest management hasn't doen anything like that.

These TAs at AWAC, Skywest and ACA are mostly political and very little financial. The combined savings of all 3 groups is what United loses in 4 days. Bain is worth every penny ($500,000/month) they are paying just to get these groups to do something. Skywest takes a freeze, looks like they are playing ball to the analysts and in 18 months nobody will care about these TAs from the analyst side. Sure, you freeze your pay for now, but that's a far cry from a 7.5% cut and a 6% adjustment for 70 seaters if we ever see them AND not for the FOs. What a joke. The standing line from the union is 'It's better than what the company originally proposed'. Oh really? What a surprise.

But, this deal at ACA is 5 years, no provision to do anything should we see a turn around at anytime during this period and with the way contracts go in this industry that thing will be around for 7+ years. And I want to reiterate that we get NOTHING. When asked why the union leadership said 'the company wasn't interested in that'. Oh really? What a surprise.

I may be wrong but it will not even take 18 months to see which group made the wiser move. Freeze our pay for 18 months and keep the same rates for airplanes we don't even have yet. In 18 months you will be lucky to have 10 CRJ700s anyway.

 

[neflyguy]

Went to the road show in Boston yesterday, as one of the ones
who will get furloughed possibly in the future,
my vote before the road show was "hell N0", after the road show,
"HELL Underscore NO!!"

DO NOT LET THEM SCARE YOU!!!!