ACA Pilots Vote for the right reasons...

[46Driver]

Tarp,
They have been dividing us for a while - remember when they took away United benefits for the Delta side - but the United side gets everything? Yet, now they come to the Delta side and ask for concessions to help United.....
Also, you really can't reduce a FRJ or J-41's F.O.s pay more than what it already is - they would be on food stamps (I am CRJ FO pay frozen so I will taking the same 7.5% hit as you.)
The bottom line - from what I understand - is not the only thing the BAIN corporation is looking at. It seems to be a line by line comparison of expenses - and thus compared to our competition of MESA, we are overpaid. Basically, BAIN is whipsawing every expense line by line to get a greater overall reduction in expenses than just a simple bottom line bid. If you are a management or a consultant, it is genius, evil, but genius - if you are labor, it sucks.
As for load rates, I remember hearing a while back that United would have to have load rates of over 100% to break even due to ticket prices being so low. Unable to raise them because the competition is either making a profit (Southwest, AirTran) or is in better shape and can afford to bleed longer until United dies (Delta, American, Northwest, etc...)
That being said, I don't know how I am going to vote. I do know that I am in graduate school now because the future is not very bright...

 

[PSA]

ACA PILOTS

The hurt that you are going through is understandable but if you don't sign your going to make your lives a living hell. Concessions are the name of the game and yes MESA is to blame for much of our contractual hell but think about the consequences you face if so say "no." Mesa is a herpe that refuses to go away, whats worse is they allowed Freedom to put down roots in their own backyard giving life to a whole new labor tactic.

It sucks but you have got to stay competitive. Help us and the other regionals keep MESA from growing.

 

[surplus1]

Re: ACA PILOTS

The hurt that you are going through is understandable but if you don't sign your going to make your lives a living hell. Concessions are the name of the game and yes MESA is to blame for much of our contractual hell but think about the consequences you face if so say "no." Mesa is a herpe that refuses to go away, whats worse is they allowed Freedom to put down roots in their own backyard giving life to a whole new labor tactic.

Based on your profile and assuming it is accurate, you appear to be a furloughed or active USAirways pilot. If that is the case, you should acknowledge that your illconcieved scope clause is responsible for the creation of Freedom, not the Mesa pilots. Mesa's dilemma subsequently forced them to accept yet another onerous invention of ALPA and the UMEC ... the Jets for Jobs protocol, which steals their seniority and that of every other carrier coerced into accepting it.

It sucks but you have got to stay competitive. Help us and the other regionals keep MESA from growing.

Just how is the ACA pilots gutting their contract going to help anyone to keep Mesa from growing? Who is the "us" to whom you refer? IF ACA, and SKYW follow ARW by gutting theer contracts and low-balling their pay, what other regionals is that going to help?

The exact opposite is true. It will hurt the only good regional contracts left. It will undermine the current negotiations at ASA, COEX and Chautauqua. It will do NOTHING for ACA or SKYW other that lower their pay, which is all it will do for ARW.

Maybe we should be telling the ACA pilots that if they give up their contract, it will NOT help UAL, it will NOT stop Mesa from growing, and it will do NOTHING for them, over and over again and pray to God they hear the warnings and say NO.

If they do get the "United deal", what good will it do ACA pilots? If the get any 70-seat jets they will also have to agree to United's version of Jets for Jobs (still not public) and the new jobs will go to furloughed UAL pilots. Maybe it will be 50% of the Captain positions, which means they will have to give up their seniority, or maybe UAL will demand ALL of the Captain positions, which means they give up their seniority again.

Since Mesa has already "agreed" to jets for jobs, if ACA, ARW and SKYW do not, then Mesa will get all those jobs anyway.

Wake up ACA guys and smell the Coffee, your ALPA advisers have hoodwinked your MEC and they are taking you to the cleaners. The reason is all too obvious.

Why should ACA pilots gut there contract so they can try to "get a deal" from UAL and then give up their seniority so that the new aircraft can be flown not by ACA pilots, but by furloughed United pilots? What is the logic of that?

 

[JTrain]

Surplus 1 - I agree with much of what you say.

Furthurmore, I'd like to apologize to you, in advance, since I strongly suspect this TA will pass. I don't know how I could look at myself in the mirror if I vote Yes, unfortunately many of my fellow ACAers are scared and will be voting yes.

Some more interesting tidbits....

-Our former MEC chair is hardcore against this TA. Of special concern to him is the way our relatively airtight ACA scope clause is being napalmed. Under our current contract, all Atlantic Coast Airlines Holdings Inc flying must be be done by pilots on the ACA seniority list. The new TA is giving the company plenty of wiggle room to start another Freedom type operation, while also providing a virtually meaningless flow thru agreement that lets a small amount of ACA pilots transition to this new company.

-5 years is just way way way too much. The economy is already showing signs of rebound, to lock in for 5 years would be stupid.

-I wouldn't object as much to taking a pay cut, if I didn't see so much inefficiency and waste around me on a daily basis. I could insert many of my favorite ACA pissing $$$$$$$ -1000s of it- down the drain, however that would take all night. Once that changes, maybe yes, then I'd think about a pay cut to preserve our current operation. But for now, no freakin' way!!!

I personally would rather sacrifice my career here at ACA than vote Yes to this TA. I've already thought this thru and thru - envisioning a worst case scenario where ACA were to tank after this TA fails, UAL were to dump us and give all their work to Mesa-type operators, and DAL were to cut us loose -something that is not too improbable- this company would be in a world of Ch. 11 hurt.

Again, I also apologize for the way many of my fellow Blue Ridgers are letting themselves be intimidated by management threats. Once we give in, it's only inevitable that this concessionary b.s. trickles to other regionals trying to raise the bar - COEX, Mesaba, CMR, ASA, etc......

JT

 

[Skull-One]

You know, if just a couple of carriers refuse to cave in then this concessionary wave would end. Heck, even Mesa might be able to turn things around somehow if the rest of us can hold the line.

Gawd, this industry is just crumbling...

 

[46Driver]

I am still up in the air on which way I am going to vote but I can assure you that there is no jets for jobs. If there was, the TA would fail miserably. No way, no how, I am going to sit as an F.O. for the next decade while somebody comes in from outside our company and takes a captain spot.

 

[PSA]

Why should ACA pilots gut there contract so they can try to "get a deal" from UAL and then give up their seniority so that the new aircraft can be flown not by ACA pilots, but by furloughed United pilots? What is the logic of that?


-The logic is this; MESA will under cut your package and your corporation will be forced to furlough....maybe not today, tomorrow, or next month but you will lose your job. Furthermore your precious stock options that the USA TODAY once upon a time once headlined.......they'll be pennies on the dollar when your compnay declares Ch. 11 (UNABLE TO COMPETE). Wake the .... up we are in this together, sign it or disappear, this isn't rocket science, it is however reality.

 

[sideshow]

I guess PSA was one of those people that told Comair NOT to strike because ASA and Skywest would take all of their flying and they would lose their job. If I'm not mistake the strike happened and Comair seems to be hiring. I suppose Mesa will be taking over every regional contract there is. Hell, I don't even know why United got rid of them in the first place, or Trans States.

 

[surplus1]

I am still up in the air on which way I am going to vote but I can assure you that there is no jets for jobs. If there was, the TA would fail miserably. No way, no how, I am going to sit as an F.O. for the next decade while somebody comes in from outside our company and takes a captain spot.

I know there is no Jets for Jobs in the ACA TA. Jets for Jobs is contained in the UAL agreement. The UAL agreement specifies that any UAX carrier that operates regional jets with more than 50 seats must provide employment opportunities for furloughed United pilots. UAL management has already agreed to that.

If you and your fellow pilots do not know this, don't take my word for it, for God sakes ask someone you can trust. If your MEC doesn't know this I can't even imagine why not. If they haven't told you ....... well I won't way it.

If you get the UAL deal for 70-seat jets, there is no doubt whatever that the UAL MEC will implement its agreement. The exact meaning of "job opportunities for furloughed United pilots" is unknown. However, if you believe for 10 seconds that the UAL MEC will not demand, as a bare minimum, the same deal that the USAirways pilots got, you had better think again. Do not be surprised if they demand the equivalent of what the American pilots are trying to do to Eagle - 100% of the Captain slots.

If you believe that ALPA will not fully support the UAL pilots in such an effort, at your expense, think again. They did it for USAirways and they will do it more readily for United. Sure you can reject it, but not if you want the UAL 70-seat deal. Remember, Mesa has already accepted Jets for Jobs with AAA. There is no logical reason to believe they won't do it again.

You are not going to get 70-seat jets for United unless you agree to their version of Jets for Jobs. Mesa will get them anyway and you will have taken a big hit for NOTHING. When the ALPA and UAL MEC sits down with United to work out the details of the "hiring opportunities" do you think they are going to invite your MEC to participate? If you do, you're dreaming. They will cut whatever deal they can and you will have to live with the results.

Mesa has always been at or near the bottom of the barrell, but ACA has been near the top. If you agree to this TA, the only thing you guarantee is the continuation of the downward spiral in regional compensation. If your TA is ratified, along with ARW (already done) and SKYW and you all accept Jets for Jobs (if one of you does the others will too .... just like USAirways) the regionals are all done. You'll still be flying and so will we, but we will all be doing it for peanuts. Delta will immediately demand the same thing from Comair, the ASA negotiations will be trashed, the chances of COEX and Chautauqua improving their contracts will be history, Mesaba will not get a dime. Comair will be forced to make similar concessions in compensation and so will Horizon, already the highest paid.

Jets for Jobs will appear on the Delta property in a heartbeat. The end result is the 70-seaters will go to the mainline and be flown by mainline pilots. No, they won't be operated at the mainline, but the mainline pilots will be on your list and they will get at least 50% of the Captain positions just like they did at USAirways. That is super seniority no matter what ALPA chooses to call it.

ALPA believes that's the way it should be and ALPA will support that effort by UAL just as they supported it at AAA. They will also support a similar effort at DAL.

I admit self-interest readily. I don't want my pilot group's contract to be gutted and I don't want Jets for Jobs in any format. Both will happen whether I like it or not, if all 3 of you (ARW, ACA, SKYW) agree to this. ARW has already rolled. If we cannot stop the slide now, the race to the bottom is over and ALL regionals will be there together, right along with Mesa ... at the bottom and with J4J on top of it.

At ACA your J-41s are going. You seem to think that if you do this and you get CRJ-700s from UAL it will stop or slow the furloughs. Ask yourselves this question. If you get the 70-seaters and 1/2 of the slots go to UAL pilots, how many furloughs will that prevent?

I think we ALL deserve better and I also think we can keep what we have. I do NOT believe this is really necessary. If we all stand together we can do it just as effectively at the top as we can at the bottom. The only way this downward spiral can be stopped is if ACA rejects the TA and SKYW does the same. Comair will hold its ground, but we cannot do it alone and we can't do it only with Horizon.

ASA and COEX and Chautauqua all have a chance to improve and so does Mesaba, but once you folks and SkyWest both give in, the game is over for the regionals and mediocrity will be assured for at least another 10 years. Do the problems at the majors require that? Will it solve the mega airline's problems? I don't think so. What little we can "save" is a drop in the bucket compared to their needs.

ALL the regional jet operators are making money (for the majors) and for themselves, with the present pilot compensation rates. The difference between current rates and the proposed new rates will do nothing to improve conditions at any of the large major airlines. However, it most definetly will destroy everything that regional pilots have been trying to do for themselves.

It is easy to slide downhill to the bottom. The climb back up to where we are today will take much longer than the 5-year contract you are voting on now. Think about it.

I wish you the best and I pray that you will see things the way they really are.

 

[sideshow]

The UAL agreement specifies that any UAX carrier that operates regional jets with more than 50 seats must provide employment opportunities for furloughed United pilots. UAL management has already agreed to that.

This is not Jets for Jobs. ACA has a policy of giving preferential hiring to furloughed ALPA pilots. UAL management could care less about employment opportunites for furloughed pilots. It's the union. I'm not aware of any deals on the table to put furloughed guys in the left seat of any 70 seaters at any express carrier. I'm not saying someone wouldn't agree to that if that was the stipulation to get the contract but that is NOT the way it is right now.

 

[surplus1]

Surplus 1 - I agree with much of what you say.

Furthurmore, I'd like to apologize to you, in advance, since I strongly suspect this TA will pass. I don't know how I could look at myself in the mirror if I vote Yes, unfortunately many of my fellow ACAers are scared and will be voting yes.

You have no need to apologize to us, sir. All I am really asking is that you all take a second look and act to protect your own interests first. If you do that, it will be a no vote and it follows, our interests will be left to us to protect which we can do. We just can't stand alone.

-Our former MEC chair is hardcore against this TA. Of special concern to him is the way our relatively airtight ACA scope clause is being napalmed. Under our current contract, all Atlantic Coast Airlines Holdings Inc flying must be be done by pilots on the ACA seniority list. The new TA is giving the company plenty of wiggle room to start another Freedom type operation, while also providing a virtually meaningless flow thru agreement that lets a small amount of ACA pilots transition to this new company.

I have not seen the full text of the TA, just the pay rates and so I did not know that you wer also giving up your Scope. That is unbelievable. The binding of your Holding Company may well be the best thing that you have in your entire contract. To give that up is the equivalent of commiting suicide. If he objects to that, your former MEC Chairman is 100% correct.

Do not do this guys, that would be a much bigger mistake than the wages!

I personally would rather sacrifice my career here at ACA than vote Yes to this TA.

In all sincerity, I do not believe that you or any other ACA pilot would be sacrificing his career by voting down this TA. In fact I believe you will do more to damage your career if you vote yes, and you will take many others with you. I admit that I could be wrong, but I do not believe that I am.

You may not get the 70-seaters if you vote no, but as I said earlier .... if you vote yes, there is no guarantee that you will get them and if you do, it will also mean that you will have to vote yes again and accept J4J, United style and they will be flying at least 1/2 of whatever 70's you get.

If you are really giving up your holding company Scope, you are opening a pandora's box the lid of which you will never again close! That is more foolish than I know how to say.

Once we give in, it's only inevitable that this concessionary b.s. trickles to other regionals trying to raise the bar - COEX, Mesaba, CMR, ASA, etc......
JT

See my previous post to 46Driver and you will know I agree completely with that.

Best wishes. Here's hoping the majority will keep their head on their shoulders and defeat this proposal.

(Edited for format and spelling)

 

[surplus1]

This is not Jets for Jobs. ACA has a policy of giving preferential hiring to furloughed ALPA pilots. UAL management could care less about employment opportunites for furloughed pilots. It's the union. I'm not aware of any deals on the table to put furloughed guys in the left seat of any 70 seaters at any express carrier. I'm not saying someone wouldn't agree to that if that was the stipulation to get the contract but that is NOT the way it is right now.

Sorry, but it is the equivalent of Jets for Jobs, UAL style. I am not talking about preferential hiring for furloughed pilots, that would be fine.

Yes, UAL management couldn't care less, and YES IT'S THE UNION.

I didn't say there was a deal on the table now. What there is, is an agreement between UAL ALPA and UAL management that specifies these "opportunities". Don't take my word for it, read the latest UAL contract.

The "deal" (J4J) will not hit the table until after you have agreed to these concessions, and after you have been chosen by UAL (assuming that you are). Their proffer to your Company will have to include their agreement with the ALPA/UAL MEC. It's not an option its a contract. Job opportunities for furloughed United pilots is a requirement of any UAX agreement that includes aircraft with more than 50-seats. I didn't write the contract, ALPA did. Please read it.

Perhaps it will take the form of preferential hiring only. If that is the case, I would be amazed and you can easily agree with no harm. However, in my opinion, that is highly unlikely. The UAL MEC is highly experienced and much more agressive than USAirways. If AAA could get the J4J deal that they did, which I assume you are aware of, then surely the UAL MEC can do the same. As you say, management doesn't care. It will be dumped on you, just as it was on ALG, PDT, PSA, MES, MDW, CHQ, TSA. .... all of which have agreed to it. If you refuse in (in whatever format it may finally take) then you will not get the contract for 70-seaters. If you are not aware of that, then it's hopeless.

 

[46Driver]

There has been no, none, zilch, talk of jets for jobs on the ACA ALPA boards for the last few weeks. There has been talk of preferential hiring and I have no problem with that - they can come in at the bottom of the seniority list - just as I would if I got hired by United. I think the pilot's union would burn down the house before that happened.

 

[Patriot328]

I have not seen the full text of the TA, just the pay rates and so I did not know that you wer also giving up your Scope. That is unbelievable. The binding of your Holding Company may well be the best thing that you have in your entire contract. To give that up is the equivalent of commiting suicide. If he objects to that, your former MEC Chairman is 100% correct.

Do not do this guys, that would be a much bigger mistake than the wages!

Surplus, I just want to make a correct about what my coleauge said. Our scope is not being losened. If ACAI runs it, we're flying it. What the language talks about in the TA is regarging what happens if ACAI buy a minority (non-controlling) stake in another airline. Our scope today says we have absolutely no right to any of the flying at the other company. The new scope language would allow a few of our guys (ie, furloughed guys) to transfer to this new company at their option.

ie, if ACAI teams up (buys a 25% stake, say) with Branson (and someone else) to start up Virgin Slut in the US, under our current agreement we see NOTHING because ACAI isn't operating the other airline, it's just an investment. Now, under the "new" language (we'll see about that, but that's another thread), we will get some preferential hiring for some of our guys (small amount, I think it works out to be 72 of them). The language reads something along the line of "the company HAS to get the pilots jobs if it's a start up carrier" and it "will try to make arrangements for jobs" if it's not a start up carrier. If ACAI buys 25% of UAL's stock, it'd be hard to get our guys a few jobs there right now, ya know?


Anyway, just on this aspect of the TA, people have been greatly mis-informed. We're not giving up any of our scope language (which is perhaps some of the best in the business). We're adding to it. It's not much of an addition, really, but it's a start.

 

[surplus1]

Surplus, I just want to make a correct about what my coleauge said. Our scope is not being losened. If ACAI runs it, we're flying it. What the language talks about in the TA is regarging what happens if ACAI buy a minority (non-controlling) stake in another airline. Our scope today says we have absolutely no right to any of the flying at the other company. The new scope language would allow a few of our guys (ie, furloughed guys) to transfer to this new company at their option.

Anyway, just on this aspect of the TA, people have been greatly mis-informed. We're not giving up any of our scope language (which is perhaps some of the best in the business). We're adding to it. It's not much of an addition, really, but it's a start.

Praise the Lord and pass the ammunition... I'm really pleased to hear that and hope you are correct. The fact that your Scope binds ACA Holdings does make it one of the best in the regional segment and I'm really glad to hear that you are not giving that up too.

I hope you realize that I only want the best for you guys and of course for our guys. I can't fathom the necessity of any regional jet carrier making concessions when the Company is not in trouble and I am not at all convinced that ACA is in any danger of losing its UAL contract. It would take years, literally, for Mesa to replace you and ARW and SkyWest all at the same time.

While United's Jets for Jobs policy has obviously been kept on the back burner, in my opinion for political reasons, I believe you will have to deal with that as soon as the first CRJ-700 is allocated to ACA. Preferential hiring for furloughed UAL pilots is not a problem in my view, but anything close to the USAirways concept is anathema.

Since you will have to face this prospect regardless of how you vote on the TA, I feel you all should be totally aware that it is coming down the pike.

That is why I think that gutting your contract to get flying that will be ultimately given to someone else, if you accept J4J, just makes no sense at all.

Thanks for quieting some of my fears. I hope you are correct.

 

[surplus1]

There has been no, none, zilch, talk of jets for jobs on the ACA ALPA boards for the last few weeks. There has been talk of preferential hiring and I have no problem with that - they can come in at the bottom of the seniority list - just as I would if I got hired by United. I think the pilot's union would burn down the house before that happened.

46,

Jets for Jobs is a political hot potato. It should not surprise you if it is being kept on the back burner for that very reason.

Preferential hiring and Jets for Jobs are two very different animals. Pref hiring is a good idea that helps pilots in trouble with furloughs. Jets for Jobs is the grand theft of regional pilot seniority.

Unfortunately, the United PWA is not specific enough to let anyone know, outside of ALPA and the UAL MEC, just what their real plan is going to be. That lack of clarity is the obscure "devil in the details" of this equation.

As soon as the union got away with the imposition of Jets for Jobs on the USAirways affiliates, every warning light in the cockpit of regional carriers should have gone to RED with the Master Caution screaming. That so-called protocol is one of the worst things to ever come out of Herndon. It may benefit mainline pilots, but it is nothing more than the theft of regional pilot seniority.

If it is possible, I predict the UAL MEC will do its best to ensure that the 70-seat "job opportunities" provided for in their contract becomes J4J-II. They would be foolish if they did not attempt it, and you all will be even more foolish if you do not see it coming and you let it happen.

Jets for Jobs is an ALPA National policy. They created it, they support it fully and they will try to implement it wherever they can.

Yes, you have the contractual right to refuse it. So did all the USAirways affiliates. Originally, with the exception of Mesa, they all opposed it, but one-by-one they have all come to accept it. Even CHQ was forced to reverse their no vote and swallow J4J, in a futile effort to stop Republic. Once PSA took the bait, every regional associated with USAir Group was forced to follow suit.

There are 3 of you (ARW, ACA and SKYW) playing Russian Roulette with these "concessions" in what I think is a misguided effort to "match Mesa" and keep what you already have plus get more. I believe it is unnecessary and ultimately you will all shoot yourselves in the head if you agree to this.

United management has done a lot of really stupid things and may still lose the entire airline, but I doubt seriously they will put all of their regional feed into the Mesa basket. That's not going to happen; even they are not dumb enough to do that. They are using the Mesa pilot contract to spread fear among their current affiliates and drag your contacts down to the lowest possible denominator. You all are letting them do it.

Try to remember what FDR said, "We have nothing to fear but fear itself." Courage is the ability to do the right thing in the face of fear. Concessions at this time are not the right thing.

The union (ALPA National) should be urging you all to stand your ground and defend your contracts. Instead, it is advising you to join the race to the bottom and duplicate Mesa by gutting two of the best regional contracts that ALPA has ever negotiated (ARW & ACA). SkyWest is not ALPA, but they too are embracing the fear strategy and participating in a very foolish bidding war. It will hurt us all and benefit none.

Why is the union doing this? It will destroy every decent regional contract in existence as well as prevent other ALPA carriers like Mesaba, COEX and ASA from making any progress in their negotiations. I can't believe that the folks at Herdon don't know that. Why then are they recommending these concessions? There's a reason and it is certainly not because ARW or ACA are in any immediate danger due to excessive pilot wages.

When you figure it out let me know. Meanwhile, I hope you all will stand your ground along with SKYW and stop this unwarranted race to the bottom.

Good luck.

 

[KingAirKiddo]

One benefit of the 70 seat deal with United, though, is that it could potentially bring those of us who were furloughed back on property faster. The deal specifically calls for the "preferential hiring" of UAL furloughees. There can be no hiring at ACA until all of us who are furloughed get recalled. I'm personally not getting excited...the furlough has taught me to believe it when I see it, but it is at least a glimmer of hope.

Oh, well...hopefully my Comair interview will go well next month so that I can have a fresh start in "airline world".

 

[D'Angelo]

interesting guess the TA was voted down, we all know what happened next. Definately a tragic turn of events.

 

[GogglesPisano]

interesting guess the TA was voted down, we all know what happened next. Definately a tragic turn of events.

Quit trolling.

 

[dojetdriver]

interesting guess the TA was voted down, we all know what happened next. Definately a tragic turn of events.

Wow, you dug back THREE years to find a thread that has no real bearing on anything going on now. Impressive.

Guess you also don't know what happened with the TA do you?