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ACA Pilots Vote for the right reasons...

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DoJetJock

New member
Joined
May 29, 2003
Posts
2
ACA Pilots should not base their vote on pressure from the pilots of other airlines. No one flying for Comair, with the exception of their senior MEC officers, who were at last nights road show to show their support, has attended a roadshow, nor completely understands our predicament. The fact is if you vote no based on the fact that you want to look tough in the industry and the company goes under due to the loss of UAL flying, no other pilot group is going to give you a medal or honor , or anything else other than maybe a thanks and goodluck at Home Depot. This TA does not represent a race to the bottom. It still puts us among the top regionals in the country as for as total contractual benefits, (better scope protection, CVR/FDR protection). IF you vote no please do it for the right reasons and not to simply make a statement. Hundreds, if not thousands of people's livelihoods and careers are riding on this vote. BAIN IS FOR REAL. UAL would not go out and spend $1M per month on a BS organization. They take nothing into consideration other than Line item Expense. UAL is not paying them to make a recommendation then go with something different.
To the Comair guys. I speak for all when I say that we respect you for the strike and for what you have achieved for yourselves and for the industry and I thank you for treating our stepchild pilot group in CVG with respect and for always giving me a ride to work. But when you struck, your partner was not in CH.11 and there was no consulting group holding a loaded pistol to you head saying lower your costs or else. Your strike happened during the race to the top and being Pre-9/11 you had the ability to hold the upper hand. Well now in the days of Regional Portfolios, and underbidders, and bottom feeders, it is a little tougher to make a stand. There are too many others willing to say 'hey we'll do it for less money and less headache'
Fortunately, you were never in the position we are in now and it must be easy from an outsiders view to say what we should do. I am still soul-searching for what my vote will be. But as a person who has always acted honorably, whatever decision I make will be final and I know I will hold my head high regardless.
Frats.
 
UAL would not go out and spend $1M per month on a BS organization

I see this number has increased since the roadshow I went to. Cleary it's not BS. If Bain get's Express carrier pilots to take 7.5% wage reductions over a 5 year period by just being hired they can show United that they were worth every bit of the money they shelled out for them.

Well now in the days of Regional Portfolios, and underbidders, and bottom feeders, it is a little tougher to make a stand

When exactly is it easy to make a stand. I'm sure the Comair guys that went without pay didn't see it as easy. Delta could certainly have held a gun to their head and said, Okay, we'll give all of your flying to ASA, Skywest and ACA. Good luck.

.
They take nothing into consideration other than Line item Expense. UAL is not paying them to make a recommendation then go with something different
Gee, where did I hear this before. Oh, at the roadshow. As if Bain would tell anyone exactly how they were going to make their decision. When you hire a high priced consulting firm, I used to work for one, of course they are going to drop in 20 guys 2 years out of college to look at everything to do with the business. They are of course getting paid to do that. But that does not necessarily mean that is the bottom line decision. If it is then Skywest is out as an Express carrier. Now is that the FACT.

(better scope protection, CVR/FDR protection
Absolutely NOT better scope protection. I see you take what the MEC and negotiating committee say regardless of anything else. If that's the case maybe you can tell the guys who went for Time Off Without Pay (TWOP) why they can not use their travel benefits OR jumpseat during their time off. As they were told by the Union they would be able to. Since the MEC and negotiating committee UNANIMOUSLY voted for this you might as well send in your YES vote right now. And oh by the way, why don't you tell the unioin you would like the 7.5% cut everyone else is taking. Or just take it yourself and send it to some furloughed guy. Maybe then you can hold your head high, regardless.
 
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Like I said I haven't made my decision yet but I thank you for your insight into some of the things I said and one of the reasons I chose to post my thoughts was so I could have them dissected and analyzed which goes into helping me make a completely informed decision.
I feel it is good to have different perspectives on things and I now have that and realize some things I posted should be disputed, and thanks for that.
 
As I posted elsewhere on this board I believe that something has to be done, not for financial reasons but for political reasons. That is why I think Skywests 18 month pay freeze is pretty wise on their part. In 18 months things will be alot more clear in terms of United's situation and the number of 70 seaters in the Express network will be negligible, in my opinion. But, if Skywests TA is voted in it looks like they did something. Outsiders will not disect these TAs like the pilots will and if things turn around the Skywest pilots have an opportunity to move forward. You can be assured that no matter what good happens, ACA management will not look at the pilots contract for 6+ years. Now, if anything else bad happens OR we don't get the United contract then management will get even greater reductions and concessions.
 
DoJetJock- I read your post and thought it was a well written clear explanation of your reasons and thoughts. Here are my reasons for voting NO.

1. If this TA is voted yes on then will united accept ACA's proposal?

2. Why are the pilots the only one taking pay cuts? How much of a paycut is managment taking?

3. Why are the paycuts for so long? Why not for 6 months and then reevaluated after that? 5 years is a long time.

4. 2 percent per year doesn't even cover inflation.

5. Why pay cuts and work rules. Why not one or the other.

6. If this TA is accepted will there be no more furloughs? NO

7. This isn't about what comair or anybody else thinks. Comair stood up for what was right and took a stand. Good for them. I've got a ton of respect. It's time now for aca to take a stand and avoid this mesa TA.

The roadshows suck. There is no information coming from them.
 
Originally posted by Diesel
DoJetJock- I read your post and thought it was a well written clear explanation of your reasons and thoughts. Here are my reasons for voting NO.

1. If this TA is voted yes on then will united accept ACA's proposal?


If it's voted NO, does that improve the chances of UAL accepting ACA's bid? No clear answer. I suspect voting NO will not HELP ACA's chances, however.

2. Why are the pilots the only one taking pay cuts? How much of a paycut is managment taking?

Don't have an answer. Apparently Tom and Kerry didn't budge on management compensation. That's a HUGE sticking point for me. The MEC brought up the "management knows we're pi$$ed off" speech again. I think we heard that during the greenbook shows. I also believe that Bain will be laying the hammer down on our inefficiencies as well as our "over paid" pilots.

3. Why are the paycuts for so long? Why not for 6 months and then reevaluated after that? 5 years is a long time.

It was negotiated. Like they said, the company wanted longer, MEC wanted shorter. That's what they came up with. SKYW got 18 months (subject to change at any time), AirWhiskey got 8 (management originally wanted 16!?) Not having any kind of snap backs is a huge sticking point as well.

4. 2 percent per year doesn't even cover inflation.

You're right, it doesn't. But there are two ways to look at it: A) You are getting more than a 2% increase every year because you are not only getting the ED+12 or 24 raises, but also your longevity increases as well.

That being said, B) a pilot in their first year now will be making about the same in five years as what I do now (a 5 yr guy) on the FRJ CA scale. Sucks.

5. Why pay cuts and work rules. Why not one or the other.

Work rules = $ The company wants money. Work rules are nothing but money to the company. Would you have rather seen us keep transition conflict pay (which will go away with PBS anyway) and take a 10% cut or vice versa? Either way, it's money out of your pocket.

6. If this TA is accepted will there be no more furloughs? NO

If it's denied, will there be no more furloughs? NO. It's been made relatively clear, if we do NOT get 70seaters in this deal, we will be furloughing another 400 pilots. The 41s are going bye-bye and we are done getting 50 seaters. If there is nothing to replace the 50s (ie, 70 seaters), we're going to have a lot of pilots hanging around doing nothing. I firmly believe even if we vote no, we'll keep the 87 RJs we have now, but then that's it. We'll be tremendously fat on pilots and it will be very ugly. The number were 400 MORE pilots on the street, 3 years to do the bump and flush, and about $15,000,000 in costs to the company. We will not have any time to be looking for growth in that scenario.

7. This isn't about what comair or anybody else thinks. Comair stood up for what was right and took a stand. Good for them. I've got a ton of respect. It's time now for aca to take a stand and avoid this mesa TA.

I agree. I personally think we rolled over for the green book too easily. That being said, even under the TA, we're miles above Mesa and their contract. We're still one of the highest paid regionals, with CMR being the leader. If we weren't dealing with a bankrupt partner, we'd have more leverage than we do now.



I arrived at the road show in CVG at 1:30pm. I said goodbye to the last MEC person a little after midnight. Something I gathered while I was there: This TA isn't about growing, it's about trying to keep as many of our pilots employed. It's about lowering costs *enough* to get UAL's business, but no more. We will be, by no means, putting in the lowest bid to UAL. I sincerely believe that. I think the idea of this TA is to get our costs just low enough to get a deal. The somewhat lower costs, the infrastructure we have already, and our history with UAL, is what will get us the UAL contract.

There's so much uncertainty in this, one might as well flip a coin. It's a helluva a bet either way, because either voting yes or no can be really good or really really bad.

Still doing some soul searching....


Patriot
 
I was a definite "NO" to begin with myself and the more I hear, the more I am sitting on the fence. This is not similar to the Comair situation being that Delta was not in bankruptcy vice United in deep trouble and above all, the BAIN corporation making those decisions - in particular the line item expense. In particular, the one thing that is making me think is that all of our MEC reps are good guys, they have the most info, and they recommended this TA - unamiously. I may not like it - but a lot of things in life are unpleasant. Now, back to my graduate school classes.....
 
But why 6 years. Does managment expect the pilots to go to them when the economy is doing good and ask for raises? NO why?, because the pay rates are set in the contract.
 
embraerdriver is right!

Anybody who is in fear of their job because of this TA should consider the benefits of having a fallback career. This fear tactic is a typical negotiating tool. We have to stay strong and stay united. Think about all those times in the past when people fought for better pay and working condtions in our profession.
Well, now it's OUR TURN. ALL EYES ARE ON ACA!

It's about honor and respect. What about our furloughed brethren, have we forgot about them? Nothing in this deal addresses those issues. We need a solid business plan, not a paycut!!!

Don't be a BEOOOTCH!

house
 

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