ABX Japan Proffer Closing

[ABXbooger]

Proffer is closing today at 5, anyone have any idea how it's going to close?

 

[Sporto]

Proffer is closing today at 5, anyone have any idea how it's going to close?

All captains from mostly 9fo's and the FO slots will be supplied from new hires. Speculation, of course.

 

[Jurassic Jet]

Preliminary Results

Proffer is closing today at 5, anyone have any idea how it's going to close?

The results are in!

1st Class:
1 767 CA
3 767 FO

2nd Class:
3 767 FO
1 DC9 FO

3rd Class:
4 DC9 FO

4th Class:
1 767 CA
1 DC8 FO
1 767 FO
1 DC9 FO

 

[ke4lir]

The results are in!

1st Class:
1 767 CA
3 767 FO

2nd Class:
3 767 FO
1 DC9 FO

3rd Class:
4 DC9 FO

4th Class:
1 767 CA
1 DC8 FO
1 767 FO
1 DC9 FO

Can I assume those are for all the Captain slots?

 

[Jurassic Jet]

Can I assume those are for all the Captain slots?

Yes you can. No FO slots were bid.

 

[Box-Hauler]

How are they going to get 4 new hires into the class by October 8th. That means they would have to be interviewed and hired next week to start next week so they can get through basic indoc before they start systems class for the 767.

The other option would be to take the class starting on the 22nd and taking those captains and pairing them with the 4 guys in the October 8th class. That would then be 4 groups of 2 going through the sim instead of 2 groups of 2 like it will be for the first class.

 

[nitefr8dog]

How are they going to get 4 new hires into the class by October 8th. That means they would have to be interviewed and hired next week to start next week so they can get through basic indoc before they start systems class for the 767.

The other option would be to take the class starting on the 22nd and taking those captains and pairing them with the 4 guys in the October 8th class. That would then be 4 groups of 2 going through the sim instead of 2 groups of 2 like it will be for the first class.

The word is recalled crews are going to take some slots new hires will fill the rest.

 

[HeavyjetDC8]

More to the point, if this domicile is counter to the RLA, why isn't 1224 taking the matter to court?

 

[FreightBumper]

More to the point, if this domicile is counter to the RLA, why isn't 1224 taking the matter to court?

Patience, wait for it.

 

[HeavyjetDC8]

I've been patiently waiting for sometime. Not just Japan, but the awarding of Junior Man assignment has become contrary to contract. Time to draw a few lines in the sand.

 

[Box-Hauler]

With 7 more F/O's vacating the right seat how they gonna staff the plane for the ILN freight. Mr. Graber is in a tight spot and not doing anything to fix it. I had hopes he would come to abx and change the status quo. Obviously he has been seduced by the "bonus money management syndrome." It will take a dedicated effort to staff this airline and it is not happening, my only explanation is that there is something in the works and we will just have to wait and see...........

 

[erichartmann]

I've been patiently waiting for sometime. Not just Japan, but the awarding of Junior Man assignment has become contrary to contract. Time to draw a few lines in the sand.

I suspect the whole "emergency call out" thing is a non-starter. It has been going on so long now that managment will undoubtly claim past preceedent. It's not a violation of the status quo, merely a minor dispute as to the interpretation of the language contained in the CBA and the intent of the parties. Bottom line, we'll likely lose any attempt in court or through the grievance process. The only way to fix this is new language with notes and examples that make clear the intent of the parties is not to staff the airline through emergency call. Also, we need to make the cost of using emergency call as a staffing tool prohibitive. That was the intent of the forcing management to give back days below 13 in the next 30 days. Clearly managment correctly believed they could rely on the collective greed and mission oriented viewpoint of the membership to circumvent the CBA. Step one for correcting the abuse of emergency call provision is not permit them to pay you OF rates when they need to give you a day back. Take your day. This will cause them to pay the 2.5 to the individual they do use, and eventually (probably faster than you would think) cause them to run out of crews. They will no doubt plead with you, but we need to force their hands on this one.

As to Osaka, the language in the CBA does not specifically say the terms and conditions must be negotiated prior to the opening of the domicile. We infer that because the language does require us to change working conditions while we are under status quo provisions of the RLA. Becasue the language does require us to discuss/negotiate the terms and condidion changes needed for an new international domicile it is argueable that management is within their rights to proceed as they have. Unfortunately, if we bring the matter to the courts seeking a TRO, the burden of proof lies with us. At present this might not be our best tactic.

 

[HeavyjetDC8]

That was the intent of the forcing management to give back days below 13 in the next 30 days. Step one for correcting the abuse of emergency call provision is not permit them to pay you OF rates when they need to give you a day back. Take your day. This will cause them to pay the 2.5 to the individual they do use, and eventually (probably faster than you would think) cause them to run out of crews. They will no doubt plead with you, but we need to force their hands on this one.

Good points, but the Junior Man assignments are now being awarded to bring days off down to 13. Junior Man is a function of seniority, not number of days off where after 13 remaining the next senior person is assigned. 1224 leadership is well aware that this is how the awards are being made yet allows it to go unchallenged.

It would also be constructive for a refresher on fatigue and being fit for duty. ABX in their infinite wisdom can schedule for whatever they wish but only the individual pilot can judge as to fitness for duty.

Upon reflection I think you're correct about the Japan domicile being a violation of the spirit but not language of the CBA. Perhaps advertisements in Asian newspapers and short circuiting the visa process is initially the way forward.

 

[Box-Hauler]

Only the pilots allows them to junior man. You just say NO. They cannot charge you a sick day on a day off. They cannot force you to continue on a trip. It all lies at the feet of our greedy pilot group. Greed from the top down. OPF, junior manning, and the bidding of KIX. All greed. Stop for 3 months allowing the side deals, the OPF and the junior manning and the company will be at the table with bells on, pen in hand ready to sign almost anything we put in front of them.

They too are greedy, in fact they are even more greedy than our pilot group. Management has always gotten their bonus checks by us allowing them to abuse us for just a few pennies on the dollar. If we stop everything, as noted above they will not only loose their bonus money they could loose a lot more due to cancel flights. And for the crap of them taking us to court over OPF I would love to have a judge tell me I need to work on my day off. That is not going to happen.

Again the union has fallen short. We had the company on the ropes with the 1 month of no OPF and we let them up. How about that past practice, we did it once so we should be allowed to do it again. I for one will work my 15 days and not 1 more, they cannot pay me enough to not go home and be with the family.

 

[penguin22]

If we stop everything, as noted above they will not only loose their bonus money they could loose a lot more due to cancel flights.

We've already had canceled flights due to no crews. And 767s sitting in MIA not flying charters because no crews. Doesn't seem to serve as incentive for the company to bargain with us.

I'd suggest you use some critical thinking here instead of just emotions. Initially, I too thought it would be best if nobody bid the KIX domicile, thinking it would be a sign of unity. But one of the FOs who bid it made excellent, well thought out points. (refer to the emails)

If nobody bid it, the whole domicile would be staffed with probationary pilots who would let the company to run it anyway they want.

And as we all know...
"Arbitrations have been lost in the past when the company has been able to argue "past practice" even when those practices violate the contract because the pilots were willing participants in the violation. This has the everlasting effect of eroding contractual language." (quoting the SPC)

We're better off with captains over there who aren't on probation and who know our contract. I think the company was hoping the whole bid went insufficient. I'm glad it didn't.

And enough with your emotional outbursts about our "greedy" pilot group. The company no doubt uses these forums to gauge our unity. If they perceive our group is splintered and easily divided, they are encouraged to push that lever even more. Like trying a second time with this Osaka domicile.

If you don't like the way our CBA is structured, then put together a slate and run for election. Make it your platform to take away from the senior pilots and give more to junior pilots. Put it to a vote, you'll probably win, and I'll be retired anyway. But don't just blast away on here with emotions; you're just encouraging the company.

BTW, those of us who are on top of the list aren't here by just dumb luck. Back in the mid eighties everybody was hiring, and dozens and dozens of our friends left ABF for the legacy carriers. It was a big decision not to go with them. We've got college degrees and had jet PIC time, believe me, we were hirable. But I put my whole career at risk to stay here because I saw the potential. I could've easily taken the conventional career path, and I'd be long gone. I risked it all to stay here. Not simply dumb luck, after all.

Now we're enjoying the fruits of battles long ago won, and risks long ago taken, and setting ourselves up for retirement (high five). You want to change things? then change them, but don't splinter the group in the process. Ford & Harrison just loves to see your anger at your fellow pilots.

Now they’re counting on you to b!tch about the guys who bid KIX. Instead, our union needs to back those guys 100%.

 

[LarryinTN]

Junior Man is a function of seniority, not number of days off where after 13 remaining the next senior person is assigned.

Perhaps I'm misunderstanding what you're saying, but junior manning *IS* a function of number of days off as well as seniority. Per Article 13.L.2 & 3 a senior pilot with more than 13 days off is junior manned before a more junior pilot who is at, or below 13 days off.

 

[Sporto]

BTW, those of us who are on top of the list aren't here by just dumb luck. Back in the mid eighties everybody was hiring, and dozens and dozens of our friends left ABF for the legacy carriers. It was a big decision not to go with them. We've got college degrees and had jet PIC time, believe me, we were hirable. But I put my whole career at risk to stay here because I saw the potential. I could've easily taken the conventional career path, and I'd be long gone. I risked it all to stay here. Not simply dumb luck, after all.

Now we're enjoying the fruits of battles long ago won, and risks long ago taken, and setting ourselves up for retirement (high five). You want to change things? then change them, but don't splinter the group in the process. Ford & Harrison just loves to see your anger at your fellow pilots.

Your sense of entitlement wants to make me puke.uke:
We have all made sacrifices and judement calls whether to be here or not and yes, luck is involved good or bad take your pick.

If anyone splinters the group it's attitudes such as your's that accomplishes just that.

 

[HeavyjetDC8]

Perhaps I'm misunderstanding what you're saying, but junior manning *IS* a function of number of days off as well as seniority. Per Article 13.L.2 & 3 a senior pilot with more than 13 days off is junior manned before a more junior pilot who is at, or below 13 days off.

Thanks for the clarification. I'll dig it out. To date this hasn't been an issue with past staffing problems not coming close to todays shortage of crew. Taking everyone down to 13 days has been unheard of, especially considering that bottom 50/75 apparently no longer counts.