Absolutely Furious !!!!!

[Rez O. Lewshun]

So ALPA is only capable of being a firewall between the smallest percentage of pilots and an exaggerated destruction? Come on! I know thats good for them but I want more action than that! This is the major leagues, not T-ball.

What I like about the ALPA action is it sets precedence....

 

[Flopgut]

What I like about the ALPA action is it sets precedence....

True. That is good.

 

[BluDevAv8r]

Seems to me that ALPA "management" was being fiscally responsible by not simply agreeing to Unit 2's demands. We shall see what happens with this latest TA. My guess is that no new money was added and the deck chairs were rearranged.

From the latest ALPA FastRead:

On May 18, ALPA's administrative employees (Unit 2) ratified the tentative agreement they had reached one day earlier. The members of Unit 2 had rejected an earlier TA on May 12. Their strike lasted three and a half days.
During the strike, ALPA officers and management continued to attend to the core services of the association. All negotiations, safety, legal and legislative activities remained on track.

The final contract for Unit 2 personnel is effective retroactive May 1 and has a 3-year duration. The final contract traded a few lower health care costs for productivity improvements, ensuring that its net cost is equal to the original, rejected TA.

I guess I was right for once - rearranged the deck chairs.

-Neal

 

[BluDevAv8r]

Your characterization of the fundamentals is just polishing a turd. ALPA has put precious little up in the "win" column. They are a very expensive non performer. If Unit 2 can continue to enjoy pay levels that don't match ALPA's reality then they are not trending positive quick enough.

I disagree. I think people have expectations of their union that are out of line with reality. ALPA cannot make oil get back to $30/bbl and ALPA cannot remove terrorism from the threat list. ALPA cannot run companies nor can ALPA place sh-t hot CEO's in charge of the airlines. What ALPA can do is work with the cards dealt to them as best as they can. What ALPA also does, for your money, is protect you in all sorts of situations such as medical, legal, contractual, etc. But what ALPA won't do is "piss on you and tell you it is raining." ALPA will be clear about what is possible to change and what isn't. Is ALPA perfect? Of course not. Not even close. Both as an organization as well as the people involved inside that organization. But pilots also must constantly keep their expectations in line with reality. And many sadly don't do that and expect way too much...

Congratulations on your new job. I hope it continues to be what you are hoping for. You and I both made a similiar monetary sacrifices to be here. I have 10 years and I get less sure this will pay off by the day. Who told you this was the "best passenger airline for financial stability, business plan, growth and retirements?" Because I heard the same thing when I made the jump and I'd like to find that guy and kick him in the seeds!

Thank you. Nobody told me that stuff by the way. That is my own analysis (which isn't worth much apparently). I made the decision to apply to CAL on my own and came here with eyes wide open about the pro's and con's.

Why don't you run for rep? I think I'd like to vote for you.

Your dripping sarcasm is noted.

But in case you were actually being serious, I won't run for a few reasons...most notably I am not even out of training yet, let alone off probation. And secondly, being an elected rep is not a job that I could do well.

-Neal

 

[Flopgut]

I disagree. I think people have expectations of their union that are out of line with reality. ALPA cannot make oil get back to $30/bbl and ALPA cannot remove terrorism from the threat list. ALPA cannot run companies nor can ALPA place sh-t hot CEO's in charge of the airlines. What ALPA can do is work with the cards dealt to them as best as they can. What ALPA also does, for your money, is protect you in all sorts of situations such as medical, legal, contractual, etc. But what ALPA won't do is "piss on you and tell you it is raining." ALPA will be clear about what is possible to change and what isn't. Is ALPA perfect? Of course not. Not even close. Both as an organization as well as the people involved inside that organization. But pilots also must constantly keep their expectations in line with reality. And many sadly don't do that and expect way too much...

Rep, NC member, Chairman, whatever. The more junior the better. Seriously, lets get you on the NC. I'm not patronizing you, I don't even really agree with you on much. But you seem to have a penchant for enduring the eternally misguided supreme leaders of ALPA and you have a history of success. Which, BTW, is something very scarce in the last 25 years of CAL pilot labor history.

ALPA has not played the cards dealt them well at all. Their leadership has not been creative nor inspired. Low points like this in the industry offer opportunity to prepare for the upside. ALPA leadership in that regard has been woefully inadequate. (especially CALALPA)

ALPA is old school, too old school. We need new thinking. You have to be unwilling to accept old, failed ways of doing things and push for new ways. Successful companies (in this industry and others) are doing just that. If our company and our union does not evolve you and I will eventually be out of a job.

 

[Rez O. Lewshun]

I disagree. I think people have expectations of their union that are out of line with reality. ALPA cannot make oil get back to $30/bbl and ALPA cannot remove terrorism from the threat list. ALPA cannot run companies nor can ALPA place sh-t hot CEO's in charge of the airlines. What ALPA can do is work with the cards dealt to them as best as they can. What ALPA also does, for your money, is protect you in all sorts of situations such as medical, legal, contractual, etc. But what ALPA won't do is "piss on you and tell you it is raining." ALPA will be clear about what is possible to change and what isn't. Is ALPA perfect? Of course not. Not even close. Both as an organization as well as the people involved inside that organization. But pilots also must constantly keep their expectations in line with reality. And many sadly don't do that and expect way too much...

ALPA has not played the cards dealt them well at all. Their leadership has not been creative nor inspired. Low points like this in the industry offer opportunity to prepare for the upside. ALPA leadership in that regard has been woefully inadequate. (especially CALALPA)

ALPA is old school, too old school. We need new thinking. You have to be unwilling to accept old, failed ways of doing things and push for new ways. Successful companies (in this industry and others) are doing just that. If our company and our union does not evolve you and I will eventually be out of a job.

Flopgut...

• How has ALPA not played the cards well?
• How has the leadership been creative?
• How should the opportunity to prepare for the upside be done?
• How has ALPA leadership been inadequate?
• What new thinking are you suggesting?
• Push for new ways? Like what?

What successful companies (in this industry). I propose to you that successful companies don't have cynical union members. It is hard to be cynical when you have desposable income.

My company didn't evolve. In fact my last three didn't. Now that they no longer exist, no one is saying it was the unions fault.

Before you reposnd to my last, please address the bullet points.

 

[Flopgut]

Flopgut...

• How has ALPA not played the cards well?
• How has the leadership been creative?
• How should the opportunity to prepare for the upside be done?
• How has ALPA leadership been inadequate?
• What new thinking are you suggesting?
• Push for new ways? Like what?

What successful companies (in this industry). I propose to you that successful companies don't have cynical union members. It is hard to be cynical when you have desposable income.

My company didn't evolve. In fact my last three didn't. Now that they no longer exist, no one is saying it was the unions fault.

Before you reposnd to my last, please address the bullet points.

Workers and shareholders best interestes are pretty close. Thru ALPA we should take the opportunity to accurately portray our inadequate management as compared to others. Example: SWA. It was creative to use fuel oil futures to create hedges. Some legacies had the same fuel hedges but their shortsighted mgts sold them! ALPA should have latched on to that sort of incompetent blunder and got the entire mgt team held accountable. If SWA would have sold their fuel hedges to some laegacy how cynical do you think their unions would be? Off the chart.

Upside. Every scenario for consolidation between ALPA carriers should be negotiatiated NOW. Preempt mgt's divide and conquer tactic. (Yes, I know we have merger policy, but it sucks. Set up specific consolidation models now)

At CALALPA we guarded our upside poorly. Compare our stock deal to UAL's and we got pennies. We did not get a bond either.

ALPA does not act on things. A 1000 or so senior pilots show up to speak out for a retirement age change contrasting the ALPA position on the issue, and the union says nothing. No matter how you feel about it, that was at least actionable. ALPA needs to speak out about the type of mgt that can lead legacies. Rally employees and get the attention of boards of directors. For the money we spend on mgt, if we could guarantee some creative control, we could probably lure some SWA talent away. Or at least somebody better! What are we going to do, find a less capable mgt teams? (those instances are mostly related to ALPA carriers that went BK)

Or, how about this: Ryanair pilots pay for their own trng. If that were to become a reality in this country then maybe there is an opportunity. Maybe ALPA should be in the trng business? Think about that. We already know UAL mgt is a bunch of duds, what if we could get them to sell TK to ALPA? ALPA relieves the trng cost burden and gives mgt some cash the greedy worms can divy up. Amoritize the airlines trng costs for 10 or 15 years and pump cash back into the CBA via a side letter. And then do that across the industry. Yes, its an outlandish idea, but think about it.

 

[Rez O. Lewshun]

Workers and shareholders best interestes are pretty close. Thru ALPA we should take the opportunity to accurately portray our inadequate management as compared to others. Example: SWA. It was creative to use fuel oil futures to create hedges. Some legacies had the same fuel hedges but their shortsighted mgts sold them! ALPA should have latched on to that sort of incompetent blunder and got the entire mgt team held accountable. If SWA would have sold their fuel hedges to some laegacy how cynical do you think their unions would be? Off the chart.

Upside. Every scenario for consolidation between ALPA carriers should be negotiatiated NOW. Preempt mgt's divide and conquer tactic. (Yes, I know we have merger policy, but it sucks. Set up specific consolidation models now)

At CALALPA we guarded our upside poorly. Compare our stock deal to UAL's and we got pennies. We did not get a bond either.

ALPA does not act on things. A 1000 or so senior pilots show up to speak out for a retirement age change contrasting the ALPA position on the issue, and the union says nothing. No matter how you feel about it, that was at least actionable. ALPA needs to speak out about the type of mgt that can lead legacies. Rally employees and get the attention of boards of directors. For the money we spend on mgt, if we could guarantee some creative control, we could probably lure some SWA talent away. Or at least somebody better! What are we going to do, find a less capable mgt teams? (those instances are mostly related to ALPA carriers that went BK)

Or, how about this: Ryanair pilots pay for their own trng. If that were to become a reality in this country then maybe there is an opportunity. Maybe ALPA should be in the trng business? Think about that. We already know UAL mgt is a bunch of duds, what if we could get them to sell TK to ALPA? ALPA relieves the trng cost burden and gives mgt some cash the greedy worms can divy up. Amoritize the airlines trng costs for 10 or 15 years and pump cash back into the CBA via a side letter. And then do that across the industry. Yes, its an outlandish idea, but think about it.

Flopgut,

Air Line Pilots Do Not Run Airlines.

What does it gain to criticize your management. It can be done but you have to be tactful about it.... Besides, what obligation does mgmt have to listen? Or even comply? In addition, they have no shame. The monies that they rape from our companies for no performance is clearly evident. Criticizing doesn't work..

Unfortunately, we are dependant on our corporate leadership. You can get hired by Pan Am or Eastern or TWA and there is nothing your union can do if your CEO or market forces are determined to ruin your career...

CAL/XJT was a perfect example of how consolidated unions don't work.

Not sure what to tell about the retirement age thing. ALPA did a survey and only about 37% of the pilots participated.... So much for democracy...

As far as the second part of your paragraph...again management has no obligation to listen to union critiques.... only to adhere to the contract...

As far as ALPA getting into the training business... I am trying to think about and I just don't see the benefit.... plus your idea is so conditional... It is too far out there.......

 

[EMB Skillz]

JOIN ALPA! Together we will make many magazines!

 

[Ty Webb]

Ty:
Einstein/chuck/boris/limp lizard/texas croch rot works for Skyway. He goes around telling everyone he fly's for Midwest. He's nothing but a scared little child!

Uhhh, "scarred" little child is more like it. Bet he's got a flat spot on the top of his head where his Mommy dropped him when he was little . . . . .

How big a loser does one have to be to keep making up screen names that are all based on lies, then get banned for being a jackass, then make up a newer and stupider screen name, only to get banned again?

Pretty pathetic . . . .

 

[Flopgut]

JOIN ALPA! Together we will make many magazines!

Hilarious!

 

[Flopgut]

Flopgut,

Air Line Pilots Do Not Run Airlines.

What does it gain to criticize your management. It can be done but you have to be tactful about it.... Besides, what obligation does mgmt have to listen? Or even comply? In addition, they have no shame. The monies that they rape from our companies for no performance is clearly evident. Criticizing doesn't work..

Unfortunately, we are dependant on our corporate leadership. You can get hired by Pan Am or Eastern or TWA and there is nothing your union can do if your CEO or market forces are determined to ruin your career...

CAL/XJT was a perfect example of how consolidated unions don't work.

Not sure what to tell about the retirement age thing. ALPA did a survey and only about 37% of the pilots participated.... So much for democracy...

As far as the second part of your paragraph...again management has no obligation to listen to union critiques.... only to adhere to the contract...

As far as ALPA getting into the training business... I am trying to think about and I just don't see the benefit.... plus your idea is so conditional... It is too far out there.......

If mgt is taking care of the shareholder, they are taking care of the employee too. Look at successful companies. Connecting with shareholders is key. The corporate climate is ripe, look at Enron and Sarbanes/Oxley.

Unions need to be sufficiently inflexible to mgt whim so as to inspire them to do better; To run a successful business that can meet its obligations.

I'm still playing with the trng idea. Look at what so many airlines are doing with heavy mx. Mgt sells the trng to our union and gets to call it outsourcing, the street loves it, stock goes up, and we have an asset.

It is outlandish, but it is a reality in Europe. It is only a matter of time before Jetblue, Jetyellow, Jetgreen, or Jetorange tries it here (figuratively speaking only). Right now we ALPA members act like fueding bands of nomads and only react to issues. Why not get in front of an issue instead?

 

[Rez O. Lewshun]

If mgt is taking care of the shareholder, they are taking care of the employee too. Look at successful companies. Connecting with shareholders is key. The corporate climate is ripe, look at Enron and Sarbanes/Oxley.?

And successful companies don't have cynical union members. Looking out for the shareholder can be defined in so many ways... The current Corp Trend is short term, until the CEO gets his golden parachute. then he is outta there and the new guy can worry about it...

30 Year UAL employees with CEO's that come and go....Yeah it's the UAL unions fault...

Unions need to be sufficiently inflexible to mgt whim so as to inspire them to do better; To run a successful business that can meet its obligations.

Sorry. managment and thier gross compensation packages can be responsible enough...

But I think unions are inflexible. Unions move slow and don't respond to the flavor of the month...

I'm still playing with the trng idea. Look at what so many airlines are doing with heavy mx. Mgt sells the trng to our union and gets to call it outsourcing, the street loves it, stock goes up, and we have an asset.?

Are Airline unions in the heavy mx business?

Besides, if a union running a pilot training school was such a good idea, wouldn't it be here already? I mean with full time union guys working 60+ hours a week, I think they got something on us flight info guys...

And another besides. HOW are you going to get the company to hand over control of thier training dept., to the union? I don't know of hostile department buyouts, but then again I am not a fianace/Street guy...

It is outlandish, but it is a reality in Europe. It is only a matter of time before Jetblue, Jetyellow, Jetgreen, or Jetorange tries it here (figuratively speaking only). Right now we ALPA members act like fueding bands of nomads and only react to issues. Why not get in front of an issue instead?

Becuase management doesn't know what the next issue is... It is the way it is... unions repsond to management.....

but most of all...

Air Line Pilots Do Not Run Airlines!

 

[BluDevAv8r]

CAL/XJT was a perfect example of how consolidated unions don't work.

Was it? If you were there, you'd know it wasn't necessarily the model that was flawed but the people sitting at the table at that time. That said, XJT has prospered since the split and grown up to be a very formidable MEC with a lot of unity, etc. Everything happens for a reason as they say.

-Neal

 

[Lame Lizard]

Yeh, I am all of those you say I am. Now answer the question. Are you or are you not a dues paying member of ALPA.

Hey Boris,

Since I am you and you are me, maybe he will answer the question. I myself would like to know. And so would I.

 

[Rez O. Lewshun]

Was it? If you were there, you'd know it wasn't necessarily the model that was flawed but the people sitting at the table at that time. That said, XJT has prospered since the split and grown up to be a very formidable MEC with a lot of unity, etc. Everything happens for a reason as they say.

-Neal

-Neal,

Thanks for the input..as you were there, you know much better than I.

I wish it did work because, I believe Brand Scope needs to be explored....

From what I hear it was the people and not the model. Which goes to show it is not the union rather the leadership....

Rezfully yours....

 

[D'Angelo]

JOIN ALPA! Together we will make many magazines!

Dont forget to buy stock in printer cartridges and crayola either. Everytime ALPO has some drama they buy and waste lots of both. Crayola must be loving life and so must all the printer cartridge companies.

 

[BluDevAv8r]

-Neal,

Thanks for the input..as you were there, you know much better than I.

I wish it did work because, I believe Brand Scope needs to be explored....

From what I hear it was the people and not the model. Which goes to show it is not the union rather the leadership....

Rezfully yours....

It is absolutely the leadership and not the union...that is the case 95% of the time with all of this stuff. It all boils down to MEC leadership.

-Neal

 

[Flopgut]

And another besides. HOW are you going to get the company to hand over control of thier training dept., to the union? I don't know of hostile department buyouts, but then again I am not a fianace/Street guy...



Becuase management doesn't know what the next issue is... It is the way it is... unions repsond to management.....

but most of all...

Air Line Pilots Do Not Run Airlines!

Heavy mx is being outsourced. Maybe someday they will consider outsourceing trng. CAL mortgaged Expressjet to the hilt, Air Canada is going to IPO their Frequent flyer program. They will merchandise anything if they think there is an advantage. That is mgt's mandate, we could take advantage of it.

I think the Ryanair guy gets all his ideas from SWA, he just exaggerates them. He knew SWA pilot candidates paid for thier type ratings, he took that one step further to include recurrent.

Its not like we (ALPA) can't do this. Operating, training, and managing these airplanes is what we know how to do. You may be partially right, airline pilots don't run airlines, but successful airlines are run by people who understand it is a flying business. We have those people among us

 

[BluDevAv8r]

Rep, NC member, Chairman, whatever. The more junior the better. Seriously, lets get you on the NC. I'm not patronizing you, I don't even really agree with you on much. But you seem to have a penchant for enduring the eternally misguided supreme leaders of ALPA and you have a history of success. Which, BTW, is something very scarce in the last 25 years of CAL pilot labor history.

Well thank you for the backhanded compliment. I do my best I suppose...and what happens, happens. Where are you based by the way?

ALPA has not played the cards dealt them well at all. Their leadership has not been creative nor inspired. Low points like this in the industry offer opportunity to prepare for the upside. ALPA leadership in that regard has been woefully inadequate. (especially CALALPA)

ALPA is old school, too old school. We need new thinking. You have to be unwilling to accept old, failed ways of doing things and push for new ways. Successful companies (in this industry and others) are doing just that. If our company and our union does not evolve you and I will eventually be out of a job.

I don't disagree with you completely...it is a better discussion in person though. I can argue either side of this one frankly...

-Neal

 

[Flopgut]

Well thank you for the backhanded compliment. I do my best I suppose...and what happens, happens. Where are you based by the way?



I don't disagree with you completely...it is a better discussion in person though. I can argue either side of this one frankly...

-Neal

Not so backhanded. I respect you. I have friends that know you. Your a rainmaker and fast tracking you into CALALPA would be a good thing. I don't have to agree with everything you say to realize you can get the job done. Will you do it?

I am based in Houston.

 

[BluDevAv8r]

Not so backhanded. I respect you. I have friends that know you. Your a rainmaker and fast tracking you into CALALPA would be a good thing. I don't have to agree with everything you say to realize you can get the job done. Will you do it?

I am based in Houston.

Check your PM's.

-Neal

 

[Lame Lizard]

Hey ty, did you leave? It is pretty lame when you can't finish what you started up.