About, JetBlue 190 pay

[michael707767]

Ok, so what do you think a 1900 pilot should be paid? Are you saying the pay should be directly proportional to the number of seats? So, given the lousy Jet Blue 190 pay of $89/hour for a 12th year captain, a 12th year 1900 captain should be paid under $18 an hour?

No. Here is how I would do it. Figure out a base value on what a captain is worth, regardless of aircraft size. To pick a number, 30 an hour for a Capt and 20 for an F/O. Then to that base rate, increase it for the number of seats. Don't know what a 1900 seats but lets use 20 seats. Start with a base of $30 an hour and add to that .75 (or whatever is negotiated) for each seat, so you get a rate of 45 an hour. Using the same formula, you would get 100 an hour for a E190 seating 100, 180 an hour for a 757 seating 200 and 255 an hour for a 777 seating 300.

However, yes we should get paid on the revenue potential of what we fly. Incedently I think F/As should be paid the same whether they are at a regional or a major. No matter what the aircraft is, you have one F/A for every 50 seats. If anything, the lone F/A on a CRJ should be paid more than the three on a 737 since he/she is alone.

 

[Publishers]

First

First, there is not much reason to price pilot pay by seats.

It takes a certain level of skill to fly anything and if it is a Baron with 3 paying passengers, so be it.

This thinking leads to paying the most for the most seats and that does not really make any sense either.

Why should you get paid on the revenue potential. Just where does the pilot become a partner in the business critical to the generation of profit where they are revenue sharers.

Lastly, wht Jetblue does is only significant to Jetblue. All this argument is about an aircraft that they do not fly. The rates they end up paying will only be whatever they are when they acutually have an aircraft. It certainly is not a problem to the current group so why in hell would they want to create any kind of action, to raise or lower someone else's bar.

They have a program that works for them. Herb had a program that worked for SWA. End of story.

 

[surplus1]

While I don't agree with your strategy for fixing the problem, the following statement really got my attention.

=They fired a shot across the bow of your pilot group along with the rest of the industry.

This was not a "shot across the bow". I would describe it as a direct hit on the bridge and a torpedo below the water line disabling the steering control.

It will take a lot more than slowing down to repair this damage.

Those who made this decision may think that it will solidify their competitive advantage. When these rates are "matched" by the competition it may have the exact opposite effect .... eliminate there "unique" niche position and give birth to levels of competition beyond their wildest imagination.

Once everyone else is as cheap as JBlue they'll be left with nothing "different" to offer and be welcomed into the real world of dog-eat-dog.

All that glitters isn't really blue.

 

[General Lee]

Publishers,


You have NO IDEA what you are talking about. You sound stupid--or a management wannabe.

Why pay pilots by number of seats? The more seats, the more revenue potential, and more liability involved. We should also pay doctors the same everywhere---the local country bumpkin doctor and the head of Thorasic Surgery at Harvard Medical School. You obviously aren't an airline pilot. When you are in charge of a $150 million plane, you should be paid more than a pilot of a $100,000 Baron. I bet you also think an NFL player should be paid the same as a Canadian Football league player.... Hey, they all carry a ball around and get tackled....

Jetblue's rates affect everyone in the 100 seat market and everyone flying smaller equipment. It's called a competitve benchmark, and Jetblue isn't even doing poorly--they just imposed these low rates on pilots that haven't even gotten hired yet. The reason most Jetblue guys don't care now is because they won't have to fly the new aircraft--even the current A320 FOs will probably hold out for A320 Capt---not go to the lower rates on the new planes. You couldn't see that? Hello?

Yes, Herb has a program that works for SW. Those SW pilots also will be probably the highest paid 737 pilots on the planet soon--which proves that high pilot costs aren't always the problem. There are many other things that need to get fixed at other airlines, and not all have the SW model--some have INTL flights. But, lowering the pay bar alone is a common "quick fix" the airlines have been trying as of late--and those highly skilled and well schooled MBAs should also think about other ways to trim costs--including trimming their own bonuses when we don't hit financial goals.


Bye Bye--General Lee

 

[Dizel8]

"Those SW pilots also will be probably the highest paid 737 pilots on the planet soon--"

But for the longest time, they were amongst the lowest paid. They bore the brunt of being the "destroyer of the profession", "trailer trash pilot" etc. Even today, a few "real airline" pilot will make derisive remarks against SWA.

 

[TonyC]

"Those SW pilots also will be probably the highest paid 737 pilots on the planet soon--"

But for the longest time, they were amongst the lowest paid. They bore the brunt of being the "destroyer of the profession", "trailer trash pilot" etc. Even today, a few "real airline" pilot will make derisive remarks against SWA.

And they did it ALL without the benefit of Collective Bargaining... ooops...



nevermind...

 

[Dizel8]

Tony,

I hate to burst your bubble, but it took a long time before they made it to where they are now, collective bargaining or not. The union did not magically step in, wave a wand and voila: Great pay! It took a long time. Still, being the most profitable airline one would imagine highest pay, but such is not the case. Apparently, they were more interested in QOL and coupled with the thought of sustainability of the company.

I hear very little whinning from the SWA pilots, so either they keep it in house or they are a relatively happy bunch.

 

[General Lee]

Southwest has more unions at their airline than anyone else I believe. Also, they have been doing very well financially, and they should share the wealth. Jetblue has also been doing well--yet they slam you (your group--not you personally) with a slap in the face for future 100 seaters---that have lower pay scales than 70 seaters at the regionals. They figure that you won't mind because you won't be flying those new EMB-190s most likely. It's working. You don't seem to care much because you won't be affected. But, everyone else will--your future Emb-190 pilots, and everyone in the regional industry, along with future 100 seat rates at the surviving Majors. It has a large impact. You are not to blame though--because you didn't have a say---but it is a shame that those rates were imposed on your future brothers and sisters.....


Bye Bye--General Lee

 

[GogglesPisano]

Iflynights,

So, like I said, best of luck with your choice, I sincerely hope it works out. As for me, I will stay at jetblue and continue to make it a better place to be, if I cannot get increased pay, due to competetive concerns, then I am going to work on getting a better benefits package. As the company grows, the 190 proves itself and the profits stabilize, I have little doubt, that pay will increase

Dizel: I'm not clear on how you, a line pilot, can make JB a better place or increase the benefits package without a union behind you.

 

[thav8r]

This discussion about competitive pay rates or lack thereof is amazing. So where is all the angst when our competition, (yepp…the same guys that are now trying to instigate an internal riot) go out and operate on routes at ticket costs significantly below cost of operating with the singular goal of putting us out of business? Lets hear it from the rooting section that wishes us well, a long and prosperous future filled with profitable new routes.



Better yet how about A-B rates where new hires got screwed flying the SAME equipment on the SAME routes much less different (and smaller) on different routes. Does anyone believe for one second that our 61 aircraft fleet which controls less than 1.3% of total domestic traffic and .000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000015% of international O and D traffic out of the US really has the ability, the authority, the leverage, or clout to matter? If ALPA or APA or any other negotiating committee or MEC actually falls for the argument that “we MUST lower your rates because look at what JB did” then the pucker factor really should be reversed. Come back to us when we are 300+ aircraft with 15% market share and we are still at what might be perceived as “bottom feeder rates”.



It’s a totally ridiculous proposition to even suggest that our pay rates will drive the Industry. Just because UAL which at the time was viewed as the largest airline (or 2nd largest) and controlled some 20% of US traffic got to the highest, fastest and fattest agreement (for a short while) and drove everyone else in that direction does not mean that the airline that controls less than 2% of the traffic will drive it down.



We will do a good job taking care of our new-hire E-190 folks. THEY will decide whether we are good enough to come to work for. If no one comes, I suspect there are a few A-320 junior F/O’s that would be more than happy to go to the E-190 and make Captains rates until there is momentum and traction on the 190 and the success (or failure) of the aircraft can be assessed.



I lived through 9/11 and as promised we got a nice retroactive raise while everyone else suffered. Our guys did do the right thing and the only thing this agreement does is acknowledge that we now have another start-up airline within our start-up airline with a new and untested aircraft. I suspect (and hope) that once things get comfortable internally and we have a pretty good idea of how the market and the operation reacts our management will once again do the right thing. If they don’t, then we JetBlue pilots, all of us inexperienced (according to everyone) former ALPA members, MEC Chairmen (yes there are a few here) and Chairman of Negotiating Committees (yes there are even those here) will decide what the best reaction or action will be without the benefit and goading of all those that would rather see us gone and off the planet as well as unemployed.



For yes, we are all fellow brother pilots but I suspect that not many would like to see us employed and working for JB for another day, month, or much less until we retire. The landscape is littered by the unemployed brethren who once relied on internal brotherhood much less external support.



I suspect there was much learned during this contract implementation. I suspect there was much learned during the first contract negotiations at every carrier immediately following a successful certification election. The MEC and ALPA didn’t get it right the first time and our Management didn’t get it quite right the first time either. But I suspect everyone learned and as we all know, its not the error that matters, its how one recovers that counts.

Mediocrity is the hallmark of failure

 

[ERJDRVR]

Chautauqua Airlines (Republic Payrates)

[eff. 10/04]

YEAR 190 170 FO

12 $90 $82 $34
11 $87 $79 $34
10 $85 $77 $34
9 $82 $75 $34
8 $80 $72 $34
7 $77 $70 $34
6 $75 $68 $34
5 $73 $66 $34
4 $70 $64 $34
3 $68 $62 $33

JetBlue Payrates E190


YEAR Cpt. FO

12 $89 $53
11 $87 $52
10 $85 $51
9 $84 $50
8 $82 $49
7 $80 $48
6 $79 $47
5 $77 $46
4 $76 $44
3 $74 $42
2 $72 $40
1 $71 $37


Need we say more?

 

[Dizel8]

Is Chautauqua Airlines a stand alone entity operating as it own airline, or does it mainly do feeder service for a major under fee per departure?

In other words, Iair or ACA UX?

 

[Bill Nelson]

Why is everyone so shocked? If you fly RJ's you can expect to get RJ pay. The guys at jet blue that fly the A320 will get majors pay and the guys who fly the rj will get commuter pay. What the big shock all about?

 

[Dizel8]

And actually, we do need to say a bit more about the Chautauqua Airlines payrate. I see they list F/O pay as 34 dollars an hour, regardless of time with the company. If jetblue did that and transferred the pay onto the captain, so that pilot cost would be the same for the crew, it would result in a rate of $109 an hour 12th year.

You know, we could probably sell that to the company without much trouble, although not sure our EMB F/O's would be enarmored with that idea. So, how about we try and get the rates raised, without taking from Peter and giving to Paul. Kind of what the RJDC is saying, that they do not want to considered second class citizens. While I think the jetblue payscale is too low, it does pay the same amount per pax seat, more seats, more money!

Of course, will Chautauqua operate anything bigger than the 190. I mean, could one upgrade to the 737 or A-320?

 

[General Lee]

Bill,


The problem is that "RJs" are increasing in size. Before, they were 50 seats. Then they went to 70, and now 100? Next thing you know, anything below a 767 is an RJ---and everything smaller needs RJ rates. Leo Mullin and Fred Greed would be peeing in their pants!

Bye Bye--General Lee

 

[InclusiveScope]

Bill,


The problem is that "RJs" are increasing in size. Before, they were 50 seats. Then they went to 70, and now 100? Next thing you know, anything below a 767 is an RJ---and everything smaller needs RJ rates. Leo Mullin and Fred Greed would be peeing in their pants!

Bye Bye--General Lee

No General, the problem is that the unions (ALPA and APA), along with management, try to classify aircraft as "RJs" or "Mainline". Whatever happened to just "airliners" and "airline pilots"? Delta's first "mainline" aircraft was a 5 pax. Travel Air that flew DAL-SHV-MLU-JAN. Now a 70 seat jet is just a "feeder". I see why management thinks this way. My question is why does ALPA conspire with management in this two tiered fallacy? "RJs" aren't "increasing in size". They weren't "RJs" to start with - they were airliners.

 

[:-)]

Those who made this decision may think that it will solidify their competitive advantage. When these rates are "matched" by the competition it may have the exact opposite effect .... eliminate there "unique" niche position and give birth to levels of competition beyond their wildest imagination.

Once everyone else is as cheap as JBlue they'll be left with nothing "different" to offer and be welcomed into the real world of dog-eat-dog.

Surplus, It's nice to know that great minds think alike. Unfortunately, my genius tends to be overlooked

Now that you have stated the position so eloquently, we may just convince a few of the correctness of your statements.

Jolly good show chap.

 

[Dizel8]

The only problem with that is, that at least as far as jetblue is concerned, they are as cheap, since they match fares on our network. Does not make any difference to jetblue, whether they match our fares by using their savings account, profits from their money making routes or wrestling further concessions from their employees.

If they did manage to get CASM as low, then it would be a matter of which service the customer preferred, or lack there of, as it would more likely be. If they can get lower CASM and jetblue had nothing different to offer and was unable to attract customers, then it would simply be a matter of time before jetblue was gone, but then, that can be said for all carriers.

That is free market economy!

 

[General Lee]

Inclusivescope,


The reason RJs were called RJs was because of the range of the aircraft with a full load. A full range used to mean a limited one--usually from a certain region to a hub. Then came along the E145XR, and the CR7--with longer range and more seats(the CR7). The new EMB-190 (according to Lowecur I believe) can fly 2100nm nonstop (?) and carry 100 people with bags. That rivals the 737-200--probably beats the range.

Sure, the CRJ is an "airliner"---and it is more advanced than most of our mainline aircraft. But, since it carries less people and brings in less revenue--it pays less. To get more pay, you should strive to fly larger planes at larger airlines, not bring down larger aircraft destined for the mainline to your airline. I can understand that some people like their seniority and weekends off at their regionals---but if they want better pay and better perks--they should try to move on. That is just the truth. Unfortunately, Jetblue just brought down the pay rates to the regional level, and anyone flying 100 seaters or smaller will have to deal with those lower rates.

Bye Bye--General Lee

 

[:-)]

First, there is not much reason to price pilot pay by seats.

That would be an opinion. I'll take it for such.

It takes a certain level of skill to fly anything and if it is a Baron with 3 paying passengers, so be it.

You got us there big boy.

This thinking leads to paying the most for the most seats and that does not really make any sense either.

Methinks I'm hearing opinions again.

Why should you get paid on the revenue potential. Just where does the pilot become a partner in the business critical to the generation of profit where they are revenue sharers.

Are you an airline manager of a publisher? I must assume that you are in the publishing game, since that's how you identify yourself. I searched these forums for your previous posts and would characterize you as someone who just doesn't like pilots.

Pilots become partners in the business when their decisions can affect the bottom line. Management continually begs us to take an "ownership" role in our companies. If fuel gets a little overpriced, management begs for our participation in the fuel saving game. If pilots flew every flight by the rule book, every airline would go broke in a month, they expect and beg us to actively participate in the generation of profit. They ask us to become revenue sharers.

Lastly, wht Jetblue does is only significant to Jetblue. All this argument is about an aircraft that they do not fly. The rates they end up paying will only be whatever they are when they acutually have an aircraft. It certainly is not a problem to the current group so why in hell would they want to create any kind of action, to raise or lower someone else's bar.

They have a program that works for them. Herb had a program that worked for SWA. End of story.

For someone who offers so much management speak, you don't appear to understand much about basic socio-economics. If you do happen to be an airline manager instead of lowecur incognito, I'll bet my hat that you're already drawing up negotiating notes using those B6 rates.

Calvin

 

[Dizel8]

When feeder airlines started, ALPA or any other pilot union should have said: "Sure, you can get feed, but we will fly under one seniority list and with our pilots". Had they done that, we would not have this debacle we see today, like the RJDC and DAL management not only playing the DAL pilots againts Comair-ASA, but playing ComAir versus ASA.

RJ pilots would not be looking kindly on management decreasing mainline flying with RJs, since they would want to move up into the better paying mainline airplanes. Now, since DAL is not growing, except on the RJ side, and there is no defined flowthrough, flying an RJ is a career and as such, quite understandably, the RJ pilots wish to be paid accordingly.

The better option would have been, start in the RJ end up in the 777. One group of pilots, one list, one airline working together.

 

[General Lee]

Dizel8,


That would have been nice, and that has been brought up before--especially in our C2K talks. But, the senior guys flying the RJs (the minority over there) insisted on "date of hire" so they could go right into a 737 Capt seat. I know that sounds wrong, but it is absolutely true. So, where should that start? Most of the pilots (the majority) would have taken a staple, but the vocal minority ruled out even preferrential hiring back in 2000.

Bye Bye--General Lee

 

[InclusiveScope]

Inclusivescope,


The reason RJs were called RJs was because of the range of the aircraft with a full load. A full range used to mean a limited one--usually from a certain region to a hub. Then came along the E145XR, and the CR7--with longer range and more seats(the CR7). The new EMB-190 (according to Lowecur I believe) can fly 2100nm nonstop (?) and carry 100 people with bags. That rivals the 737-200--probably beats the range.

Sure, the CRJ is an "airliner"---and it is more advanced than most of our mainline aircraft. But, since it carries less people and brings in less revenue--it pays less. To get more pay, you should strive to fly larger planes at larger airlines, not bring down larger aircraft destined for the mainline to your airline. I can understand that some people like their seniority and weekends off at their regionals---but if they want better pay and better perks--they should try to move on. That is just the truth. Unfortunately, Jetblue just brought down the pay rates to the regional level, and anyone flying 100 seaters or smaller will have to deal with those lower rates.

Bye Bye--General Lee

General,
Why should I strive to "fly larger planes at larger airlines"? Why not just strive to fly larger planes at MY AIRLINE? That way I don't have to give up my seniority. It's very simple General. Either we move forward as a SINGLE pilot group or we move forward as SEPARATE pilot groups. If we move forward as SEPARATE pilot groups, then I want larger aircraft here. Either we are a single group working together, or we are separate groups competing with each other.

 

[iflynights]

dizel,


I don't know how you can defend these payrates. They are simply ridiculous. At these rates they might as well have had another company fly these airplanes. I have nothing positive to say about this debacle.

 

[Dizel8]

iflynights,

Were exactly did I say, that I thought the pay was adequate? What I did do, was point out, was I thought was a flaw in the rhetoric, ie, paying an F/O $34 without a raise. Further, I inquired if CHQ was stand alone.

I have sent my letter, stating my case to the powers that be, it is my hope, that you will do the same, after all together we can do amazing things, but one step at a time.

 

[ERJDRVR]

iflynights,

Were exactly did I say, that I thought the pay was adequate? What I did do, was point out, was I thought was a flaw in the rhetoric, ie, paying an F/O $34 without a raise. Further, I inquired if CHQ was stand alone.

I have sent my letter, stating my case to the powers that be, it is my hope, that you will do the same, after all together we can do amazing things, but one step at a time.

To answer your questions.

CHQ is not a stand alone like ACA. They supply feed to UAL, DAL, USAIR & AMR.

The $34.00 rate for FO's stops and 4 years for one reason and one reason only. The USAIR Jet4Jobs FO's come on property making TOP FO pay. So company limited TOP FO pay t0 $34.00.

 

[lowecur]

dizel,


I don't know how you can defend these payrates. They are simply ridiculous. At these rates they might as well have had another company fly these airplanes. I have nothing positive to say about this debacle. See you at WN in a few years when they go to Section 6. From the frying pan to the fire. You're a malcontent, and B6 should have picked that up at interview.

.....

 

[taxionewire]

EMB190 JBLU Ratonalization

Frontoffice, you can try and put lipstick on a pig, but its still a pig.

Neeleman posted those rates because he could. And he knows there is nothing you guys could or would do about it.

I'd have much more respect for you guys if you just said "yep, its a pig, but it won't affect me. Got mine; too bad about the guys behind me, but that's not my concern." Please understand, I am not saying that's the honorable thing to say, but its certainly the more accurate thing to say, from what I have seen on this board thus far.

So please, just put the lipstick away. Or as my old CO used to say: "You can't shine a turd."

 

[AA717driver]

It's about job security stupid! I have about 1500 friends who are out of work from TWA who would love to have that job that Iflynights is ready to give up.

The whole idea that another carrier's pay rates negatively impact yours is bull. When UAL got their big contract, TWA was still well below industry standard. Vanguard, Frontier, Air South, AirTran... All paid well below the majors. Are you saying that the mighty ALPA can't wield its massive power and wring more money from the overflowing coffers at Delta and UAL?

This whole attitude of "defending the profession" is B.S., too. You're just interested in defending YOUR career.

In fact, this whole thread is bullsh!t. If you don't want to fly for JB, then don't. There are 10,000 others who will gladly take your place in line. This idea of a 'wine and roses' career in the airlines is gone. Now, you have to find what is best for you and hope like hell your company holds together for 30 years or so. Chances are, it won't.

JB will get the message that they need to improve pay when they can't fill newhire classes and they have people leaving(other than one or two) for other airlines.

So, you can keep kicking JB and thinking that the glorious airline career is out there waiting on you. As for me, I'll just be happy to have landed a job in this environment.TC

 

[jbucpt]

dizel,


I don't know how you can defend these payrates. They are simply ridiculous. At these rates they might as well have had another company fly these airplanes. I have nothing positive to say about this debacle.

please do yourself a favor and have a REALITY CHECK. these rates are based on economics. (something UAL, USAIR, DELTA, AMERICAN, or ALPA have NEVER done. (whats your opinion of SOUTHWEST NOT MEETING ESTIMATES) well the reality is: HIGHER OIL PRICES, HIGHER LABOR, and most importantly NO REVENUE CONTROL. that is your reality, iflynights.

if you want to be ignorant and believe jetblue is screwing you, then do so. however, when you have no yield control you cannot expect "industry standard rates".

so please do me a favor and quit. (which you will never do) we have over 8000 pilots who want your seat.

once you do resign, educate yourself by signing up for a college course call ECONOMICS 101.

"We don't want to kill the golden goose; we just want to choke it by the neck until it gives us every last egg it has."