About, JetBlue 190 pay

[ERJDRVR]

Chautauqua Airlines (Republic Payrates)

[eff. 10/04]

YEAR 190 170 FO

12 $90 $82 $34
11 $87 $79 $34
10 $85 $77 $34
9 $82 $75 $34
8 $80 $72 $34
7 $77 $70 $34
6 $75 $68 $34
5 $73 $66 $34
4 $70 $64 $34
3 $68 $62 $33

JetBlue Payrates E190


YEAR Cpt. FO

12 $89 $53
11 $87 $52
10 $85 $51
9 $84 $50
8 $82 $49
7 $80 $48
6 $79 $47
5 $77 $46
4 $76 $44
3 $74 $42
2 $72 $40
1 $71 $37


Need we say more?

 

[Dizel8]

Is Chautauqua Airlines a stand alone entity operating as it own airline, or does it mainly do feeder service for a major under fee per departure?

In other words, Iair or ACA UX?

 

[Bill Nelson]

Why is everyone so shocked? If you fly RJ's you can expect to get RJ pay. The guys at jet blue that fly the A320 will get majors pay and the guys who fly the rj will get commuter pay. What the big shock all about?

 

[Dizel8]

And actually, we do need to say a bit more about the Chautauqua Airlines payrate. I see they list F/O pay as 34 dollars an hour, regardless of time with the company. If jetblue did that and transferred the pay onto the captain, so that pilot cost would be the same for the crew, it would result in a rate of $109 an hour 12th year.

You know, we could probably sell that to the company without much trouble, although not sure our EMB F/O's would be enarmored with that idea. So, how about we try and get the rates raised, without taking from Peter and giving to Paul. Kind of what the RJDC is saying, that they do not want to considered second class citizens. While I think the jetblue payscale is too low, it does pay the same amount per pax seat, more seats, more money!

Of course, will Chautauqua operate anything bigger than the 190. I mean, could one upgrade to the 737 or A-320?

 

[General Lee]

Bill,


The problem is that "RJs" are increasing in size. Before, they were 50 seats. Then they went to 70, and now 100? Next thing you know, anything below a 767 is an RJ---and everything smaller needs RJ rates. Leo Mullin and Fred Greed would be peeing in their pants!

Bye Bye--General Lee

 

[InclusiveScope]

Bill,


The problem is that "RJs" are increasing in size. Before, they were 50 seats. Then they went to 70, and now 100? Next thing you know, anything below a 767 is an RJ---and everything smaller needs RJ rates. Leo Mullin and Fred Greed would be peeing in their pants!

Bye Bye--General Lee

No General, the problem is that the unions (ALPA and APA), along with management, try to classify aircraft as "RJs" or "Mainline". Whatever happened to just "airliners" and "airline pilots"? Delta's first "mainline" aircraft was a 5 pax. Travel Air that flew DAL-SHV-MLU-JAN. Now a 70 seat jet is just a "feeder". I see why management thinks this way. My question is why does ALPA conspire with management in this two tiered fallacy? "RJs" aren't "increasing in size". They weren't "RJs" to start with - they were airliners.

 

[:-)]

Those who made this decision may think that it will solidify their competitive advantage. When these rates are "matched" by the competition it may have the exact opposite effect .... eliminate there "unique" niche position and give birth to levels of competition beyond their wildest imagination.

Once everyone else is as cheap as JBlue they'll be left with nothing "different" to offer and be welcomed into the real world of dog-eat-dog.

Surplus, It's nice to know that great minds think alike. Unfortunately, my genius tends to be overlooked

Now that you have stated the position so eloquently, we may just convince a few of the correctness of your statements.

Jolly good show chap.

 

[Dizel8]

The only problem with that is, that at least as far as jetblue is concerned, they are as cheap, since they match fares on our network. Does not make any difference to jetblue, whether they match our fares by using their savings account, profits from their money making routes or wrestling further concessions from their employees.

If they did manage to get CASM as low, then it would be a matter of which service the customer preferred, or lack there of, as it would more likely be. If they can get lower CASM and jetblue had nothing different to offer and was unable to attract customers, then it would simply be a matter of time before jetblue was gone, but then, that can be said for all carriers.

That is free market economy!

 

[General Lee]

Inclusivescope,


The reason RJs were called RJs was because of the range of the aircraft with a full load. A full range used to mean a limited one--usually from a certain region to a hub. Then came along the E145XR, and the CR7--with longer range and more seats(the CR7). The new EMB-190 (according to Lowecur I believe) can fly 2100nm nonstop (?) and carry 100 people with bags. That rivals the 737-200--probably beats the range.

Sure, the CRJ is an "airliner"---and it is more advanced than most of our mainline aircraft. But, since it carries less people and brings in less revenue--it pays less. To get more pay, you should strive to fly larger planes at larger airlines, not bring down larger aircraft destined for the mainline to your airline. I can understand that some people like their seniority and weekends off at their regionals---but if they want better pay and better perks--they should try to move on. That is just the truth. Unfortunately, Jetblue just brought down the pay rates to the regional level, and anyone flying 100 seaters or smaller will have to deal with those lower rates.

Bye Bye--General Lee

 

[:-)]

First, there is not much reason to price pilot pay by seats.

That would be an opinion. I'll take it for such.

It takes a certain level of skill to fly anything and if it is a Baron with 3 paying passengers, so be it.

You got us there big boy.

This thinking leads to paying the most for the most seats and that does not really make any sense either.

Methinks I'm hearing opinions again.

Why should you get paid on the revenue potential. Just where does the pilot become a partner in the business critical to the generation of profit where they are revenue sharers.

Are you an airline manager of a publisher? I must assume that you are in the publishing game, since that's how you identify yourself. I searched these forums for your previous posts and would characterize you as someone who just doesn't like pilots.

Pilots become partners in the business when their decisions can affect the bottom line. Management continually begs us to take an "ownership" role in our companies. If fuel gets a little overpriced, management begs for our participation in the fuel saving game. If pilots flew every flight by the rule book, every airline would go broke in a month, they expect and beg us to actively participate in the generation of profit. They ask us to become revenue sharers.

Lastly, wht Jetblue does is only significant to Jetblue. All this argument is about an aircraft that they do not fly. The rates they end up paying will only be whatever they are when they acutually have an aircraft. It certainly is not a problem to the current group so why in hell would they want to create any kind of action, to raise or lower someone else's bar.

They have a program that works for them. Herb had a program that worked for SWA. End of story.

For someone who offers so much management speak, you don't appear to understand much about basic socio-economics. If you do happen to be an airline manager instead of lowecur incognito, I'll bet my hat that you're already drawing up negotiating notes using those B6 rates.

Calvin

 

[Dizel8]

When feeder airlines started, ALPA or any other pilot union should have said: "Sure, you can get feed, but we will fly under one seniority list and with our pilots". Had they done that, we would not have this debacle we see today, like the RJDC and DAL management not only playing the DAL pilots againts Comair-ASA, but playing ComAir versus ASA.

RJ pilots would not be looking kindly on management decreasing mainline flying with RJs, since they would want to move up into the better paying mainline airplanes. Now, since DAL is not growing, except on the RJ side, and there is no defined flowthrough, flying an RJ is a career and as such, quite understandably, the RJ pilots wish to be paid accordingly.

The better option would have been, start in the RJ end up in the 777. One group of pilots, one list, one airline working together.

 

[General Lee]

Dizel8,


That would have been nice, and that has been brought up before--especially in our C2K talks. But, the senior guys flying the RJs (the minority over there) insisted on "date of hire" so they could go right into a 737 Capt seat. I know that sounds wrong, but it is absolutely true. So, where should that start? Most of the pilots (the majority) would have taken a staple, but the vocal minority ruled out even preferrential hiring back in 2000.

Bye Bye--General Lee

 

[InclusiveScope]

Inclusivescope,


The reason RJs were called RJs was because of the range of the aircraft with a full load. A full range used to mean a limited one--usually from a certain region to a hub. Then came along the E145XR, and the CR7--with longer range and more seats(the CR7). The new EMB-190 (according to Lowecur I believe) can fly 2100nm nonstop (?) and carry 100 people with bags. That rivals the 737-200--probably beats the range.

Sure, the CRJ is an "airliner"---and it is more advanced than most of our mainline aircraft. But, since it carries less people and brings in less revenue--it pays less. To get more pay, you should strive to fly larger planes at larger airlines, not bring down larger aircraft destined for the mainline to your airline. I can understand that some people like their seniority and weekends off at their regionals---but if they want better pay and better perks--they should try to move on. That is just the truth. Unfortunately, Jetblue just brought down the pay rates to the regional level, and anyone flying 100 seaters or smaller will have to deal with those lower rates.

Bye Bye--General Lee

General,
Why should I strive to "fly larger planes at larger airlines"? Why not just strive to fly larger planes at MY AIRLINE? That way I don't have to give up my seniority. It's very simple General. Either we move forward as a SINGLE pilot group or we move forward as SEPARATE pilot groups. If we move forward as SEPARATE pilot groups, then I want larger aircraft here. Either we are a single group working together, or we are separate groups competing with each other.

 

[iflynights]

dizel,


I don't know how you can defend these payrates. They are simply ridiculous. At these rates they might as well have had another company fly these airplanes. I have nothing positive to say about this debacle.

 

[Dizel8]

iflynights,

Were exactly did I say, that I thought the pay was adequate? What I did do, was point out, was I thought was a flaw in the rhetoric, ie, paying an F/O $34 without a raise. Further, I inquired if CHQ was stand alone.

I have sent my letter, stating my case to the powers that be, it is my hope, that you will do the same, after all together we can do amazing things, but one step at a time.

 

[ERJDRVR]

iflynights,

Were exactly did I say, that I thought the pay was adequate? What I did do, was point out, was I thought was a flaw in the rhetoric, ie, paying an F/O $34 without a raise. Further, I inquired if CHQ was stand alone.

I have sent my letter, stating my case to the powers that be, it is my hope, that you will do the same, after all together we can do amazing things, but one step at a time.

To answer your questions.

CHQ is not a stand alone like ACA. They supply feed to UAL, DAL, USAIR & AMR.

The $34.00 rate for FO's stops and 4 years for one reason and one reason only. The USAIR Jet4Jobs FO's come on property making TOP FO pay. So company limited TOP FO pay t0 $34.00.

 

[lowecur]

dizel,


I don't know how you can defend these payrates. They are simply ridiculous. At these rates they might as well have had another company fly these airplanes. I have nothing positive to say about this debacle. See you at WN in a few years when they go to Section 6. From the frying pan to the fire. You're a malcontent, and B6 should have picked that up at interview.

.....

 

[taxionewire]

EMB190 JBLU Ratonalization

Frontoffice, you can try and put lipstick on a pig, but its still a pig.

Neeleman posted those rates because he could. And he knows there is nothing you guys could or would do about it.

I'd have much more respect for you guys if you just said "yep, its a pig, but it won't affect me. Got mine; too bad about the guys behind me, but that's not my concern." Please understand, I am not saying that's the honorable thing to say, but its certainly the more accurate thing to say, from what I have seen on this board thus far.

So please, just put the lipstick away. Or as my old CO used to say: "You can't shine a turd."

 

[AA717driver]

It's about job security stupid! I have about 1500 friends who are out of work from TWA who would love to have that job that Iflynights is ready to give up.

The whole idea that another carrier's pay rates negatively impact yours is bull. When UAL got their big contract, TWA was still well below industry standard. Vanguard, Frontier, Air South, AirTran... All paid well below the majors. Are you saying that the mighty ALPA can't wield its massive power and wring more money from the overflowing coffers at Delta and UAL?

This whole attitude of "defending the profession" is B.S., too. You're just interested in defending YOUR career.

In fact, this whole thread is bullsh!t. If you don't want to fly for JB, then don't. There are 10,000 others who will gladly take your place in line. This idea of a 'wine and roses' career in the airlines is gone. Now, you have to find what is best for you and hope like hell your company holds together for 30 years or so. Chances are, it won't.

JB will get the message that they need to improve pay when they can't fill newhire classes and they have people leaving(other than one or two) for other airlines.

So, you can keep kicking JB and thinking that the glorious airline career is out there waiting on you. As for me, I'll just be happy to have landed a job in this environment.TC

 

[jbucpt]

dizel,


I don't know how you can defend these payrates. They are simply ridiculous. At these rates they might as well have had another company fly these airplanes. I have nothing positive to say about this debacle.

please do yourself a favor and have a REALITY CHECK. these rates are based on economics. (something UAL, USAIR, DELTA, AMERICAN, or ALPA have NEVER done. (whats your opinion of SOUTHWEST NOT MEETING ESTIMATES) well the reality is: HIGHER OIL PRICES, HIGHER LABOR, and most importantly NO REVENUE CONTROL. that is your reality, iflynights.

if you want to be ignorant and believe jetblue is screwing you, then do so. however, when you have no yield control you cannot expect "industry standard rates".

so please do me a favor and quit. (which you will never do) we have over 8000 pilots who want your seat.

once you do resign, educate yourself by signing up for a college course call ECONOMICS 101.

"We don't want to kill the golden goose; we just want to choke it by the neck until it gives us every last egg it has."