About, JetBlue 190 pay

[Dizel8]

"1. Refuse voluntary overtime."
Oh you mean like the DAL and Uair pilots do, since people are on furlough?

"2. Taxi at a safe speed."
Are you implying that we do not or are you saying "slowdown"?

"3. You can't go wrong with filed routes."
No, but you can ensure the integrity of the schedule for our customers, besides, not looking to rack up hours.

"4. If it breaks at an outstation do what your SOP tells you to do. Write it up and let them bring out contract MX."
Safety is our number one value, if it is misbeaving, it gets fixed.

Now, what exactly were you trying to say,that we should take our frustration out on the passenger or cause the company to spend more money?

 

[Dizel8]

embdrvr,

If that came across hard, I apologize, but whether or not I agree with the pay or company policy, I am a professional pilot first and foremost. That means, that I will ensure that the customer arrives at his or hers chosen destination close to ontime and that the flight will be safe and will be done in accordance with all rules, regulations and company policy. Luck willing, it will be smooth and despite my severe lack of ability, it will be a decent landing.

We can argue back and forth about a multitude of things, but when it comes to being a professional pilot, I think we both understand, how we should conduct ourselves. It should be done, in a manner that show the value of airmen and I am not talking money here.

 

[embdrvr]

Dizel,

Professionals get paid properly. That's what your managment team needs to realize. I didn't say you you shouldn't be professional. Just follow the policy manual to the letter - that's all. Don't do them any favors period. The last thing anyone wants to do is compromise safety in any way, shape, or form.

You gotta give the company a reason to come to the table. Spare me the noble BS about "not taking it out on the customer." Complaining about it on flightinfo will not change Nerdleman's mind. If your management cares about the customer they will see the changes and want to know what's up. Then you tell them that your E-190 rates are pathetic and way under what they should be. 2-4 weeks should be enough to deliver the message.

 

[Dizel8]

"Spare me the noble BS about "not taking it out on the customer."

My apologies, that is the way I view it, sorry that we cannot agree on this!

As far as bringing it to managements attention, what makes you think, that it is not already being done? 2-4 weeks, ask the UAIR pilots, the DAL pilots, the UAL pilots etc. Things take time and the 190 will not be here for another year!

 

[embdrvr]

Notice I said 2-4 weeks to deliver a message - not necessarily fix the problem.

I consider my friends at UAL to be professionals and I think their summer of 2000 negotiating techniques were highly effective.

The way you have to look at this, is the company brought it on themselves. They fired a shot across the bow of your pilot group along with the rest of the industry. It doesn't matter that the aircraft won't hit the ramp for a year. I can guaran-frigging-tee that pilots currently in negotiations, such as Express Jet, will have those E-190 rates thrown in their face.

Nerdleman has dealt the pilots throughout the industry a devestating blow. It's up to you guys how to respond. If you choose to live in a vacuum and pretend the rest of us don't exist that's your right. Just remember that lots of folks thought that People's Express would be around a long time. Keep in mind that Jblu may not be your last job. If you have to find a job at another carrier will you enjoy working for ALPO wages becuase you let Jblu managment wreak havoc with payscales?

Balls in your court.

PS: Are you aware why your CEO got canned by WN?

 

[vc10]

Jetblue is a good place to work, good people and all, but I don't want to be another piece of the Casm puzzle.

That's an odd comment. For any airline you work for, you will be an expense, and therefore part of the CASM puzzle. It's unavoidable.

 

[typhoonpilot]

I consider my friends at UAL to be professionals and I think their summer of 2000 negotiating techniques were highly effective

Oh my god, you have got to be kidding me The summer of 2000 slowdown at United was their turning point. They alienated every custumer they had that summer. It was the beginning of the end for United. So far more than 2000 pilots have lost their jobs, the remaining pilots have taken a massive pay and benefit cut, and soon they will lose their pension. That sure is effective

Typhoonpilot

 

[IB6 UB9]

"I consider my friends at UAL to be professionals and I think their summer of 2000 negotiating techniques were highly effective."

embdrvr,

Highly effective. LOL. At least 60% of the pilot group still has a job there, making about 60% of the wage they used to. Highly effective.

"It is OBVIOUS that you don't like ALPA, and without our high rates---your starting A320 rates could have been closer to your new EMB-190 rates--which $uck. We haven't lowered the bar---YOU HAVE----or your management did. We have kept the rates high for as long as we could--and you should THANK US for it. We have run into trouble now---but if you agree with OUR MANAGEMENT that is was all our fault--then you are WRONG also."

General,

Another one of your emotional posts as you try to hide behind your friendly mask while you poke another pin into your JetBlue doll. I wish I had every dollar back that I gave ALPA, they did nothing for me. You might find that feeling fairly popular amongst members of this board. And "THANK YOU" for what? For hitting the street so that you can keep your high wages? Oh, that's right, you are every furloughed pilots buddy. I forgot. "THANK YOU" for picking up OT while people like me pounded nails. You are pathetic. Truly a sad example of a "professional".

As far as our 190 wages go...they suck. Period. Big letdown, big slap in the face, bummer, etc. However, a few of you have been nice enough to give us JB pilots the burden of shouldering all future 100 seat rates. That's right, the ball's in our court, its up to us now, etc. That's quite a responsibility...I am impressed. WTF over? Or are you select few the same ones that just happen to express your distaste for us on any thread?

Without refusing OT, flying Mach .72, or calling the great ALPA, I think you will see this changed somehow. Just my opinion. It won't happen overnight though!

 

[michael707767]

while I think both the 320 and 190 rates are low at JB, I have always thought that pilot pay should be based on the seating capacity of the aircraft. I have no problem with this method of computing pilot pay. An aircraft should pay based on the revenue potential, and this is directly related to seating capacity.

 

[WyoHerkdriver]

Ok, so what do you think a 1900 pilot should be paid? Are you saying the pay should be directly proportional to the number of seats? So, given the lousy Jet Blue 190 pay of $89/hour for a 12th year captain, a 12th year 1900 captain should be paid under $18 an hour? And, according to your thinking, a 1900 first officer should then be paid about $9 an hour? They way the airline pilot profession is going, we may very well see rates go that low.

 

[michael707767]

Ok, so what do you think a 1900 pilot should be paid? Are you saying the pay should be directly proportional to the number of seats? So, given the lousy Jet Blue 190 pay of $89/hour for a 12th year captain, a 12th year 1900 captain should be paid under $18 an hour?

No. Here is how I would do it. Figure out a base value on what a captain is worth, regardless of aircraft size. To pick a number, 30 an hour for a Capt and 20 for an F/O. Then to that base rate, increase it for the number of seats. Don't know what a 1900 seats but lets use 20 seats. Start with a base of $30 an hour and add to that .75 (or whatever is negotiated) for each seat, so you get a rate of 45 an hour. Using the same formula, you would get 100 an hour for a E190 seating 100, 180 an hour for a 757 seating 200 and 255 an hour for a 777 seating 300.

However, yes we should get paid on the revenue potential of what we fly. Incedently I think F/As should be paid the same whether they are at a regional or a major. No matter what the aircraft is, you have one F/A for every 50 seats. If anything, the lone F/A on a CRJ should be paid more than the three on a 737 since he/she is alone.

 

[Publishers]

First

First, there is not much reason to price pilot pay by seats.

It takes a certain level of skill to fly anything and if it is a Baron with 3 paying passengers, so be it.

This thinking leads to paying the most for the most seats and that does not really make any sense either.

Why should you get paid on the revenue potential. Just where does the pilot become a partner in the business critical to the generation of profit where they are revenue sharers.

Lastly, wht Jetblue does is only significant to Jetblue. All this argument is about an aircraft that they do not fly. The rates they end up paying will only be whatever they are when they acutually have an aircraft. It certainly is not a problem to the current group so why in hell would they want to create any kind of action, to raise or lower someone else's bar.

They have a program that works for them. Herb had a program that worked for SWA. End of story.

 

[surplus1]

While I don't agree with your strategy for fixing the problem, the following statement really got my attention.

=They fired a shot across the bow of your pilot group along with the rest of the industry.

This was not a "shot across the bow". I would describe it as a direct hit on the bridge and a torpedo below the water line disabling the steering control.

It will take a lot more than slowing down to repair this damage.

Those who made this decision may think that it will solidify their competitive advantage. When these rates are "matched" by the competition it may have the exact opposite effect .... eliminate there "unique" niche position and give birth to levels of competition beyond their wildest imagination.

Once everyone else is as cheap as JBlue they'll be left with nothing "different" to offer and be welcomed into the real world of dog-eat-dog.

All that glitters isn't really blue.

 

[General Lee]

Publishers,


You have NO IDEA what you are talking about. You sound stupid--or a management wannabe.

Why pay pilots by number of seats? The more seats, the more revenue potential, and more liability involved. We should also pay doctors the same everywhere---the local country bumpkin doctor and the head of Thorasic Surgery at Harvard Medical School. You obviously aren't an airline pilot. When you are in charge of a $150 million plane, you should be paid more than a pilot of a $100,000 Baron. I bet you also think an NFL player should be paid the same as a Canadian Football league player.... Hey, they all carry a ball around and get tackled....

Jetblue's rates affect everyone in the 100 seat market and everyone flying smaller equipment. It's called a competitve benchmark, and Jetblue isn't even doing poorly--they just imposed these low rates on pilots that haven't even gotten hired yet. The reason most Jetblue guys don't care now is because they won't have to fly the new aircraft--even the current A320 FOs will probably hold out for A320 Capt---not go to the lower rates on the new planes. You couldn't see that? Hello?

Yes, Herb has a program that works for SW. Those SW pilots also will be probably the highest paid 737 pilots on the planet soon--which proves that high pilot costs aren't always the problem. There are many other things that need to get fixed at other airlines, and not all have the SW model--some have INTL flights. But, lowering the pay bar alone is a common "quick fix" the airlines have been trying as of late--and those highly skilled and well schooled MBAs should also think about other ways to trim costs--including trimming their own bonuses when we don't hit financial goals.


Bye Bye--General Lee

 

[Dizel8]

"Those SW pilots also will be probably the highest paid 737 pilots on the planet soon--"

But for the longest time, they were amongst the lowest paid. They bore the brunt of being the "destroyer of the profession", "trailer trash pilot" etc. Even today, a few "real airline" pilot will make derisive remarks against SWA.

 

[TonyC]

"Those SW pilots also will be probably the highest paid 737 pilots on the planet soon--"

But for the longest time, they were amongst the lowest paid. They bore the brunt of being the "destroyer of the profession", "trailer trash pilot" etc. Even today, a few "real airline" pilot will make derisive remarks against SWA.

And they did it ALL without the benefit of Collective Bargaining... ooops...



nevermind...

 

[Dizel8]

Tony,

I hate to burst your bubble, but it took a long time before they made it to where they are now, collective bargaining or not. The union did not magically step in, wave a wand and voila: Great pay! It took a long time. Still, being the most profitable airline one would imagine highest pay, but such is not the case. Apparently, they were more interested in QOL and coupled with the thought of sustainability of the company.

I hear very little whinning from the SWA pilots, so either they keep it in house or they are a relatively happy bunch.

 

[General Lee]

Southwest has more unions at their airline than anyone else I believe. Also, they have been doing very well financially, and they should share the wealth. Jetblue has also been doing well--yet they slam you (your group--not you personally) with a slap in the face for future 100 seaters---that have lower pay scales than 70 seaters at the regionals. They figure that you won't mind because you won't be flying those new EMB-190s most likely. It's working. You don't seem to care much because you won't be affected. But, everyone else will--your future Emb-190 pilots, and everyone in the regional industry, along with future 100 seat rates at the surviving Majors. It has a large impact. You are not to blame though--because you didn't have a say---but it is a shame that those rates were imposed on your future brothers and sisters.....


Bye Bye--General Lee

 

[GogglesPisano]

Iflynights,

So, like I said, best of luck with your choice, I sincerely hope it works out. As for me, I will stay at jetblue and continue to make it a better place to be, if I cannot get increased pay, due to competetive concerns, then I am going to work on getting a better benefits package. As the company grows, the 190 proves itself and the profits stabilize, I have little doubt, that pay will increase

Dizel: I'm not clear on how you, a line pilot, can make JB a better place or increase the benefits package without a union behind you.

 

[thav8r]

This discussion about competitive pay rates or lack thereof is amazing. So where is all the angst when our competition, (yepp…the same guys that are now trying to instigate an internal riot) go out and operate on routes at ticket costs significantly below cost of operating with the singular goal of putting us out of business? Lets hear it from the rooting section that wishes us well, a long and prosperous future filled with profitable new routes.



Better yet how about A-B rates where new hires got screwed flying the SAME equipment on the SAME routes much less different (and smaller) on different routes. Does anyone believe for one second that our 61 aircraft fleet which controls less than 1.3% of total domestic traffic and .000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000015% of international O and D traffic out of the US really has the ability, the authority, the leverage, or clout to matter? If ALPA or APA or any other negotiating committee or MEC actually falls for the argument that “we MUST lower your rates because look at what JB did” then the pucker factor really should be reversed. Come back to us when we are 300+ aircraft with 15% market share and we are still at what might be perceived as “bottom feeder rates”.



It’s a totally ridiculous proposition to even suggest that our pay rates will drive the Industry. Just because UAL which at the time was viewed as the largest airline (or 2nd largest) and controlled some 20% of US traffic got to the highest, fastest and fattest agreement (for a short while) and drove everyone else in that direction does not mean that the airline that controls less than 2% of the traffic will drive it down.



We will do a good job taking care of our new-hire E-190 folks. THEY will decide whether we are good enough to come to work for. If no one comes, I suspect there are a few A-320 junior F/O’s that would be more than happy to go to the E-190 and make Captains rates until there is momentum and traction on the 190 and the success (or failure) of the aircraft can be assessed.



I lived through 9/11 and as promised we got a nice retroactive raise while everyone else suffered. Our guys did do the right thing and the only thing this agreement does is acknowledge that we now have another start-up airline within our start-up airline with a new and untested aircraft. I suspect (and hope) that once things get comfortable internally and we have a pretty good idea of how the market and the operation reacts our management will once again do the right thing. If they don’t, then we JetBlue pilots, all of us inexperienced (according to everyone) former ALPA members, MEC Chairmen (yes there are a few here) and Chairman of Negotiating Committees (yes there are even those here) will decide what the best reaction or action will be without the benefit and goading of all those that would rather see us gone and off the planet as well as unemployed.



For yes, we are all fellow brother pilots but I suspect that not many would like to see us employed and working for JB for another day, month, or much less until we retire. The landscape is littered by the unemployed brethren who once relied on internal brotherhood much less external support.



I suspect there was much learned during this contract implementation. I suspect there was much learned during the first contract negotiations at every carrier immediately following a successful certification election. The MEC and ALPA didn’t get it right the first time and our Management didn’t get it quite right the first time either. But I suspect everyone learned and as we all know, its not the error that matters, its how one recovers that counts.

Mediocrity is the hallmark of failure