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ABC Investigates lack of pilot sleep

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I don't want CDOs banned! I want screwing with circadian rhythm banned.

I bid for and fly stand-ups all the time, with no issue. The problem is when you have a reserve pilot called at 4 am and told they're on rest until a 2045 show time. Add in having commuted from a different time zone and you have trouble.

Just my $.02

-JP
 
Yes, I know, some people love CDO's, and some apparently have no trouble with them. For those of us who do, and know damn well that we can't adjust, let us refuse them.
 
If you're going to ban CDO's you might as well ban red-eyes and all third shift work in any safety sensitive occupation.

More stringent reserve requirements for people covering CDOs sure, but asking to ban them is rediculous. It's third shift work.
 
Yeah there is nothing wrong with cdo's if you are a night owl. I remember hearing about a crew that would go to the local strip club all night and come in the morning smelling like baby oil and perfume. We have CDO's that could be actual legal overnights. Each flight is overblocked by 15-30 minutes and you walk to the hotel from the airport.
 
b82rez said:
If you're going to ban CDO's you might as well ban red-eyes and all third shift work in any safety sensitive occupation.

More stringent reserve requirements for people covering CDOs sure, but asking to ban them is rediculous. It's third shift work.
Click to expand...

Pilots are just a bunch of crying pu$$ies!!!! period!!
 
Flybet3 said:
That's what I'm saying. I would love to see some of these babies going through Navy Seal hell week. Pu$$ies.
Click to expand...

So anyone who doesn't go through Hell Week is a wuss? Like all the Marines over in the Gulf? :rolleyes:
 
Flybet3 said:
That's what I'm saying. I would love to see some of these babies going through Navy Seal hell week. Pu$$ies.
Click to expand...

Wonder why former Navy Seals dont become airline pilots?

Cost:Benefit.
They're smart.

You want a person of that caliber flying your plane for 18 hours a day? Set the salary/benefits right and they'll come kicking the door in (literally:laugh:).
 
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Jar Jar said:
Wonder why former Navy Seals dont become airline pilots?

Cost:Benefit.
They're smart.

You want a person of that caliber flying your plane for 18 hours a day? Set the salary/benefits right and they'll come kicking the door in (literally:laugh:).
Click to expand...






We have a former Navy Seal working here, if that wasn't bad enough he even married my ex... :Dproof that not every one of them is that smart!
 
b82rez said:
If you're going to ban CDO's you might as well ban red-eyes and all third shift work in any safety sensitive occupation.

More stringent reserve requirements for people covering CDOs sure, but asking to ban them is rediculous. It's third shift work.
Click to expand...

That would mean banning ALL maintenance too. Could ya see that happening? I know that'll never happen.

I agree, stand-ups and reduced rest have got to go. Make a min rest period of 10 hrs and DON'T count the damn hotel van ride. Give a 30 minute post-flight/shutdown window that includes the van ride. Maintenance write-up then the time is added.
 
Make reduced rest a thing of the past by requiring a MINIMUM rest of 10 hours under any circumstances, and you're good to go.

A CDO isn't much different than the aforementioned red-eye flying or what UPS/FDX does; I don't think they should be banned, but they should be constructed in pure overnight flying lines to avoid continual turning around of the circadian rhythm.
 
CDOs screw the rest of the pairings into being overworked. Get rid of CDOs and more overnights become staged. Instead of me being scheduled 13 hours of duty which is BS in PHL the pairings become more reasonable. It's not that CDOs can't be done. It's that CDOs cause other pairings to become fatiguing. It's indirectly negative. And to say regional airline CDOs are the same as working at UPS/FedEx is a bad analogy. Those UPS pilots walk to a crew room designed for them and their needs. Regional crews have to wait for a van to a hotel that may or may not give them any rest (noise, long van ride, etc). It is not apples to apples.

A red eye is one flight on the backside of the clock. Not that same either. And yes switching circadian rythms is definitely a greater culprit to fatigue.
 
It's funny how at ASA CDOs were unsafe until our new contract, which provided for a 1:2 duty rig to 12 hours then 1:1 after that. When a CDO starts paying 8 hours of credit, suddenly they become the safest trips out there.

In fact, now that the trips actually pay something (rather than straight block) you're seeing more people pick up a nap at the end of their 4-day trip as an easy way to get your credit up for the month. Ideal from a paycheck perspective, but not so much from a rest perspective.
 
I love sitting CDO reserve. I hate that turning into 2 days of 5 am show time ready reserve to then switch back the next 2 days to getting called to fly a CDO. That is total fatiguing BS and should be illegal.
 
joe_pilot said:
I don't want CDOs banned! I want screwing with circadian rhythm banned.

I bid for and fly stand-ups all the time, with no issue. The problem is when you have a reserve pilot called at 4 am and told they're on rest until a 2045 show time. Add in having commuted from a different time zone and you have trouble.

Just my $.02

-JP
Click to expand...
Commuting days are over.
 
WMUSIGPI said:
I love sitting CDO reserve. I hate that turning into 2 days of 5 am show time ready reserve to then switch back the next 2 days to getting called to fly a CDO. That is total fatiguing BS and should be illegal.
Click to expand...

Exactly what I'm talking about. This type of schedule re-arrangement should be banned, not the CDO's themselves.

WM, keep track of this stuff and contact your senator and congressman. Anonymously, of course :)
 
Having done full CDO lines and the occasional CDO thrown in with regular trips, I'll take the latter any day of the week. I don't do well with the constant short amount of sleep and naps but operate great if it's only one or two in a row. However, that's just me. I know a few guys that love CDOs, do only those, and look completely rested in the morning. Others hate them completely and refuse to do the. To each their own.

joe_pilot said:
Exactly what I'm talking about. This type of schedule re-arrangement should be banned, not the CDO's themselves.
Click to expand...

Perhaps a rule could require the company to get consent from the crewmember to perform this kind of schedule rearrangement unless there is a full calendar day between the different schedule types.
 
12 on 12 off.....

then raise the prices, pay pilots what they deserve and if people dont wanna fly then they can go kill themselves in their own cars.

solved
 
Pinnacle has some horrible highspeeds out of DTW and MSP... including MSP-Helena Montana, and DTW-YUL. After you fly to Montreal and go through customs, then wait for the bus to the crappy Hotel, you're lucky to get 4 hours of nap. All for 3.75 pay. MEM highspeeds are great for lineholders, but they are bad for reserves since they will often switch it to a RR overnight and tack on 4 legs in the morning.
 
Some pilots lives revolve around High Speeds. If you live near base and have a spouse that works and have kids there is nothing better than being home everyday.
 
sweptback said:
It's funny how at ASA CDOs were unsafe until our new contract, which provided for a 1:2 duty rig to 12 hours then 1:1 after that. When a CDO starts paying 8 hours of credit, suddenly they become the safest trips out there.

In fact, now that the trips actually pay something (rather than straight block) you're seeing more people pick up a nap at the end of their 4-day trip as an easy way to get your credit up for the month. Ideal from a paycheck perspective, but not so much from a rest perspective.
Click to expand...

Correction: The position has been that more than 3 CDOs in a row were unsafe. CDO lines were going fairly Senior before the rig in this contract. Check your facts.
 
Folks,

Tired is tired and there are many ways to get there; CDO, 4 day, three day, commuting, whatever.

Let's just remember, none of the issues discussed on this board have anything to do with Colgan's accident. The fatigue, rest, and pay-related-commuting issues were all directly related to personal choices made by the pilots.

Even if the FEDS limited our duty day to 8 hours, those pilots would be in the exact same position, fatigue wise.

Personal responsibility has been long missed from our culture. Professional responsibility seems to be an endangered species.
 
sweptback said:
It's funny how at ASA CDOs were unsafe until our new contract, which provided for a 1:2 duty rig to 12 hours then 1:1 after that. When a CDO starts paying 8 hours of credit, suddenly they become the safest trips out there.

In fact, now that the trips actually pay something (rather than straight block) you're seeing more people pick up a nap at the end of their 4-day trip as an easy way to get your credit up for the month. Ideal from a paycheck perspective, but not so much from a rest perspective.
Click to expand...

One point worth mentioning here:

From talking with other pilots, I've come to understand that some guys can do CDO's without too much disruption, and some can not do them.

By motivating people to pick them up, then those who can do them have reason to choose to do them. When they get gobbled up by pilots who don't mind them, it saves those pilots who can't stand them and are not physiologically safe to do them, from ever having to do them.
 

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