AA Pilots, rumor control

[Flyer1015]

Heard a rumor that AA recall rights only extend to 10 years. So if all the pilots furloughed Sept 2001, will their recall rights expire this upcoming September (2011)?


On a sidenote, I can't believe it's been almost a decade!

 

[Jeff Helgeson]

The AA recall rights have been extended indefinitely. That was when Don Carty was CEO and the company has language stating this with the APA. I cannot remember if this was part of the 2003 contract of concessions or before.

 

[Flyer1015]

Hmm. Ok, thanks. I can't imagine how many would come back now that it has been 10 years. I'm sure most found employment elsewhere (another airline) or just left the industry entirely altogether. Of the 1800 or so, I'd be surprised if anything more than 1 in 20 accept. But, who knows?

 

[ACL65PILOT]

Many of those pilots are at regionals and due to the stagnation since 2001 have not been to move on to other majors. I know a bunch of guys that will take recall when offered. Not that they want to, but they have no other option.

 

[NuGuy]

Agree with ACL. This was one of those historic demographics where getting hired in 98 versus 2003 made a colossal difference.

Nu

 

[Flyer1015]

Many of those pilots are at regionals and due to the stagnation since 2001 have not been to move on to other majors. I know a bunch of guys that will take recall when offered. Not that they want to, but they have no other option.

What regional has 9/11 AA furloughees? I can't think of one at ours. Are you talking about Eagle and their flowback situation?

 

[Whydoitry]

Per several AA jumseaters, currently getting about 20% return when called.

 

[waveflyer]

Flyer1015-
I can personally name an AA furlough at almost every regional.
I think it's been so long they just don't advertise it

 

[DYLIN]

Just flew with a check airman at my place that, turns out, still has recall rights to American. Never knew.

 

[crashmbern]

I think you'll see a lot of guys defer at first. Why give up any seniority to come an be at the bottom of AA. When they get some people below them, then they can just undefer.

 

[Jeff Helgeson]

You are missing some of the major factors

• It was 1 out 10 last I heard, but for the most part about 20% - 30% have accepted recall.
• AA pilots have had an amendable contract for a number of years
• many of the work groups have amendable contracts.
• The AE flow up issue has further stagnated the recalls of furloughees and diluted their seniority even further.
• Furloughees can defer for 3 years after the bottom AA furloughee has been offered recall (Viele?)
• Length Of Service (LOS) or credit for the years on furlough has not been granted yet, but most likely will be forthcoming.
• AA management does not have or has not announced their battle plan to lead AA into a profitable future, business plan, aircraft orders, routes, etc.
• The 100-seat jet is still a variable. The APA owns the flying, but will it be given away to secure better benefits/retirement for the more senior pilots?????
• The unknown of any future mergers and how it will affect those on furlough. JBLU is the rumor now, from the JBLU side.
• The condition of the A and B funds and if they will still be available for the furloughees upon return vs. a new type of 401K or Direct Account Plan (DAP).
• F/O stagnation issue, higher pay for years of service beyond 12 or higher percentage of Captain's pay for years of service, etc.

That is just my short list and has been discussed among many of the fuloughees that I stay in contact with. Your over-generalizations lack a lot of forethought. "We are all stuck at the regionals, 911, we have no other choices, etc." Most of the ones that I know are on bigger equipment than at the regionals, flying Captain and making more money than they would make going back to AA. The Ex-Pats. are probably tired of living abroad.

With the above list of items still unknown, it would be foolish to leave a good job to go back at first recall opportunity. IMHO. Once the APA gets a contract and these variables become known entities, I feel you will see a much higher recall rate. I would venture to guess closer to 45% - 55%. If you do not have a job or have been in a different industry, then I could see returning at first opportunity.

 

[glasspilot1]

Well written message Jeff!

 

[HalinTexas]

AA might be the first airline to have all the FO's topped out at the top of their pay scale.

 

[TWA Dude]

Length Of Service (LOS) or credit for the years on furlough has not been granted yet, but most likely will be forthcoming.

I hate to be a downer but just because LOS credit has been gained for furloughees in the past doesn't guarantee it in the future. Consider that the last time AA furloughed in the '90s it was about 600 pilots for six years. This time it's over 2000 and approaching ten years. Big, big money. How much of a pay raise are the rank-and-file willing to give up to get LOS for the furloughees? I wouldn't count on it.

AA might be the first airline to have all the FO's topped out at the top of their pay scale.

US Airways in the mid 00's gets that claim.

 

[PuffDriver]

I hate to be a downer but just because LOS credit has been gained for furloughees in the past doesn't guarantee it in the future. Consider that the last time AA furloughed in the '90s it was about 600 pilots for six years. This time it's over 2000 and approaching ten years. Big, big money. How much of a pay raise are the rank-and-file willing to give up to get LOS for the furloughees? I wouldn't count on it.

US Airways in the mid 00's gets that claim.

You are incorrect.

 

[TWA Dude]

Puffy:
Let me hold your hand for a second and explain how to make an effective argument:

a) you concisely state your position (you wrote "You are incorrect". Very good start! Ten points and gold star for you.)
b) you state relevant facts supporting your position (you wrote, um, er, nothing. What a shame. Zero points for you. Your post receives a failing grade.)

If you find yourself able to share a few more words perhaps you can elaborate on your concise statement. If proven incorrect I shall hastily retract my statement.

 

[AceOnTheRiver]

Last I heard the recall rate has been around 14%. I highly doubt very many return when they have better jobs and security at other carriers. The big question will be how many get dropped after 3 year deferrals when called. AA should be hiring by 2012.

 

[aa73]

I copied this from my posting on APC:

Rumor + AA in the same sentence = status quo for years. Raise expectations, crush, raise again, crush again.... it's the M.O. right out of the book "Confessions of a Union Buster." Gee, how convenient... we are in the midst of heated contract negotiations.

Here's the truth, based on the same playbook used by AMR for years:

AA has a huge aircraft order list. At least 20 773s and probably 100 737-700s or EMB-190s or Bombarier C-Series - not sure which of those 3, but there is nevertheless a big order for a 100 seat jet.

They will not disclose the complete order in one shot. They will dribble them out in samll announcements of 2-3 aircraft (cue the 773 order a few weeks ago.) They will leave the bulk of that for the so-called concessionary "carrot dangle" when they present their contract offer to the union - in the hopes that we will be so excited with the announced growth, that we will immediately sign on the dotted line.

What we (the union) know is this - AA needs to grow, period. So, they will order these aircraft regardless of what contract we have. They will pretend it's not possible. They will try and convince us that that no aircraft will be ordered if we don't sign to their terms. But we know better. It's been done before. They did it with the 777 orders in '97. Said they couldn't order them without concessions. We called them on their bluff, signed a contract on our terms, and they ordered them anyway.

It will probably come down to pretty close to a strike. That's when negotiations will get serious. But we will not be suckered in to their "growth based on pilot contract" B.S. They will grow - period.

So, aa73's crystal ball says that there WILL be some pretty rapid movement in the next 5-10 years here (barring some type of economic/terroristic disaster.) But aa73 and his union compadres will focus exclusively on getting the best contract possible and not on their growth promises. In some vaguely familiar words once heard in some kind of mafia movie, "FUPM."

P.s. off the street hiring will start sooner than everyone thinks, based on deferrals, early outs, NPRM ruling and scheduled retirements starting in 2013.

 

[PuffDriver]

Puffy:
Let me hold your hand for a second and explain how to make an effective argument:

a) you concisely state your position (you wrote "You are incorrect". Very good start! Ten points and gold star for you.)
b) you state relevant facts supporting your position (you wrote, um, er, nothing. What a shame. Zero points for you. Your post receives a failing grade.)

If you find yourself able to share a few more words perhaps you can elaborate on your concise statement. If proven incorrect I shall hastily retract my statement.

Here's the quote:

Quote:
Originally Posted by HalinTexas
AA might be the first airline to have all the FO's topped out at the top of their pay scale.

Your reply:

US Airways in the mid 00's gets that claim.

There are f/o's at USAirways from the mid 00's STILL not
topped out on the pay scale--let alone in mid 00's.

There, now you officially look stupid. Happy now? Don't you have somebody to sue?

 

[TWA Dude]

There are f/o's at USAirways from the mid 00's STILL not
topped out on the pay scale--let alone in mid 00's.

Ooh, goody! I thought you'd forgotten about me. Thanks for jumping in and sharing again.

Originally Posted by HalinTexas: AA might be the first airline to have all the FO's topped out at the top of their pay scale.

Puffy: in 2005 the junior FO at US Airways was a displaced captain hired in 1988. That means every FO was had at least 17 years longevity. Per LOA93 FO pay maxes out after 12 years longevity. Hence, in 2005 US Airways was definitely an airline with all FOs topped out at the top of their pay scale. Therefore my response to HalinTexas that USAirways beat AA to the punch is 100% correct.

Thanks for trying, Puffy, and better luck next time.

 

[DGdaPilot]

I copied this from my posting on APC:

Rumor + AA in the same sentence = status quo for years. Raise expectations, crush, raise again, crush again.... it's the M.O. right out of the book "Confessions of a Union Buster." Gee, how convenient... we are in the midst of heated contract negotiations.

Here's the truth, based on the same playbook used by AMR for years:

AA has a huge aircraft order list. At least 20 773s and probably 100 737-700s or EMB-190s or Bombarier C-Series - not sure which of those 3, but there is nevertheless a big order for a 100 seat jet.

They will not disclose the complete order in one shot. They will dribble them out in samll announcements of 2-3 aircraft (cue the 773 order a few weeks ago.) They will leave the bulk of that for the so-called concessionary "carrot dangle" when they present their contract offer to the union - in the hopes that we will be so excited with the announced growth, that we will immediately sign on the dotted line.

What we (the union) know is this - AA needs to grow, period. So, they will order these aircraft regardless of what contract we have. They will pretend it's not possible. They will try and convince us that that no aircraft will be ordered if we don't sign to their terms. But we know better. It's been done before. They did it with the 777 orders in '97. Said they couldn't order them without concessions. We called them on their bluff, signed a contract on our terms, and they ordered them anyway.

It will probably come down to pretty close to a strike. That's when negotiations will get serious. But we will not be suckered in to their "growth based on pilot contract" B.S. They will grow - period.

So, aa73's crystal ball says that there WILL be some pretty rapid movement in the next 5-10 years here (barring some type of economic/terroristic disaster.) But aa73 and his union compadres will focus exclusively on getting the best contract possible and not on their growth promises. In some vaguely familiar words once heard in some kind of mafia movie, "FUPM."

P.s. off the street hiring will start sooner than everyone thinks, based on deferrals, early outs, NPRM ruling and scheduled retirements starting in 2013.

Very good points, but I will say that any AA pilot talking about striking is a little funny. The NMB has little tolerance for the APA after the Lloyd years and Bates has a huge mountain to climb to turn the ship around. I think he's on his way (not so sure about the Board and the pilot group), but it will not happen quickly. Just IMHO.

 

[DGdaPilot]

What regional has 9/11 AA furloughees? I can't think of one at ours. Are you talking about Eagle and their flowback situation?

Eagle only has about a dozen or less flowbacks left.

 

[PuffDriver]

Ooh, goody! I thought you'd forgotten about me. Thanks for jumping in and sharing again.

Originally Posted by HalinTexas: AA might be the first airline to have all the FO's topped out at the top of their pay scale.

Puffy: in 2005 the junior FO at US Airways was a displaced captain hired in 1988. That means every FO was had at least 17 years longevity. Per LOA93 FO pay maxes out after 12 years longevity. Hence, in 2005 US Airways was definitely an airline with all FOs topped out at the top of their pay scale. Therefore my response to HalinTexas that USAirways beat AA to the punch is 100% correct.

Thanks for trying, Puffy, and better luck next time.

My bad. I thought the junior pilot was on furlough. I missed the part where he said active pilots. <hint: He didn't>

Good try, though. I can see where you were headed with it--albeit in the wrong direction. BTW, we don't all spend 24/7 here, and yes, I had forgotten you. You are forgettable. Just so you know, I'll probably be gone for another week or so, and then probably not remember this thread again.

 

[AceOnTheRiver]

Eagle only has about a dozen or less flowbacks left.

Their not flowbacks anymore. They are Eagle pilots using their Eagle seniority.

 

[TWA Dude]

My bad. I thought the junior pilot was on furlough. I missed the part where he said active pilots. <hint: He didn't>

Guess what, Puffy, he doesn't need to specify "active" pilots because nobody using any kind of logic would confuse furloughed pilots for employed pilots.

When people talk about AA pilots do you think they mean to include me? By your 'logic' since I'm on the AA seniority list I'm currently an AA pilot. Funny, haven't seen a regular paycheck from them since 2002.

Please, please, please don't forget about me again. My fragile ego depends on decimating your feeble arguments and inane debating style.

 

[AA717driver]

THIS is why I always looked forward to flying with 'TWA Dude'. The conversation never lagged.

TC

 

[TWA Dude]

TC, excepting you and the other TWAers I had the pleasure of flying with, heaven help me if taking recall to AA ever becomes my best option. Gosh knows the Easties (and their apologists like Puffy if he really isn't an Eastie) are doing their best to make it so.

 

[aa73]

Cmon TWA Dude, take a recall here! Just think, you'd be shot out of a cannon in weeks, not months... get a free ipad... no more hats... while having a management team that's "best in class"... what'd I miss? good times, I tell ya.

 

[DGdaPilot]

Their not flowbacks anymore. They are Eagle pilots using their Eagle seniority.

They're flowbacks who were displaced to what their Eagle seniority could actually hold.

 

[rider850]

We don't even know if they will continue recalls after the flow-thru's. So,everything else is a mute point. The flow-thru's will be complete May/June time frame and then I will believe it. These are pilots that never received a recall. So,putting a percentage on the recall is ridiculous. Especially,after a decade. I forgot what an airplane looks like.