AA liquidation

[ackattacker]

Excuse my ignorance but if the judge abrogates the Union(s) contracts, are they still bound by the NMB and RLA?
As an outsider with no experience in the 121 world, I would think that if the contract is dismissed then the employees are free to do whatever they please.

It happened to Northwest FA's. The judge "abrogated" the contract, then another judge ruled that the Union could strike, but yet another judge ruled that they could not. The last one is the precedent that stuck.

 

[B-atch]

Eastern Airlines is an example of a "wildcat strike" The mechanics walked out and the pilots and flight attendants joined in a sympathy strike..

 

[General Lee]

You also stated that the SWA/AirTran SLI WOULD go to Binding Arbitration. How did that prediction work out for ya?

It would have had retired SWA big wigs not gone to the Airtran MEC and "talked to them" harshly.(all rumor, of course) Let's hope you guys can someday act like a family and there aren't any hard feelings. It wasn't handled very well overall, and you know it.


Bye Bye---General Lee

 

[waveflyer]

It would have had retired SWA big wigs not gone to the Airtran MEC and "talked to them" harshly.(all rumor, of course) Let's hope you guys can someday act like a family and there aren't any hard feelings. It wasn't handled very well overall, and you know it.


Bye Bye---General Lee

Yes, it was handled well. And exactly consistent with SWAs history
ALPA was playing games with SWA and YOU know that.

 

[Dan Roman]

Yes, it was handled well. And exactly consistent with SWAs history
ALPA was playing games with SWA and YOU know that.

Wave, you have to admit the DAL/NWA merger was a better example of how a merger should be handled than the SWA/AirTran.

In the spirit of of the other string on this let me turn the table a little.
How would you feel if DAL bought SWA and you were treated the way the AirTran folks were in your merger?

 

[Andy]

Wave, you have to admit the DAL/NWA merger was a better example of how a merger should be handled than the SWA/AirTran.

In the spirit of of the other string on this let me turn the table a little.
How would you feel if DAL bought SWA and you were treated the way the AirTran folks were in your merger?

Odd that you chose DAL/NWA. From my understanding, a lot of NWA pilots lost ~3 years in the SLI. About the same as what AirTran pilots lost.

 

[waveflyer]

I dont concede that point Dan. And its been debated long enough. Apples to oranges- And unproductive.

 

[General Lee]

Odd that you chose DAL/NWA. From my understanding, a lot of NWA pilots lost ~3 years in the SLI. About the same as what AirTran pilots lost.

Most of them lost about 2 years. There were some at the bottom that lost a few more than that because Delta hired 600 pilots in 2007/08 and NWA hired a lot less, and year 2000 hires were blended in with those 2007 hires (although the NWA pilots got credit for their longevity even while out on furlough, giving them 8th year pay instead of 3rd year pay after the merge, something NWA did not offer). There were some NWA guys (in the 1995 range) that actually did better than the DL guys in the same area. But overall, it was about 2 years difference, and 3 arbitrators decided that.


Bye Bye---General Lee

 

[Dan Roman]

I dont concede that point Dan. And its been debated long enough. Apples to oranges- And unproductive.

OK, I'll agree a good merger is in the eye of the beholder and I am sure there are plenty of angry NWA and DAL pilots out there.

But..... like I said, if DAL bought SWA, would you be alright with getting the same treatment that the AirTran pilots got from SWA?

 

[Scoot 11]

Odd that you chose DAL/NWA. From my understanding, a lot of NWA pilots lost ~3 years in the SLI. About the same as what AirTran pilots lost.

How did they lose 3 years? SERIOUSLY? Did they not carry over their longevity WRT sick, vacation, and their DOH for non rev travel? I'm tired of hearing how the NW guys lost out. Anyone wanna guess what a '91 hire PMDL lost?



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[Dan Roman]

although after reading the Generals post and hearing what the people I know at DAL say, it sure seems like they did a better job of pissing off both sides more equally.

 

[waveflyer]

Dan- it's done. I have commented ad nauseum along with everyone else- no one is confused about my position, except you who want to keep it going- on an AA thread no less

 

[DTW320]

How did they lose 3 years? SERIOUSLY? Did they not carry over their longevity WRT sick, vacation, and their DOH for non rev travel? I'm tired of hearing how the NW guys lost out. Anyone wanna guess what a '91 hire PMDL lost?



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Yeah, I'll take a "guess"... 3 1/2 years worst case for a relatively small number of 91 DAL hires. You need to take another look at the arbitrated list. The top 2000, at least, of the NWA list lost approx. 3 years. As for your other points...sick leave? don't even go there dude....many NWA had 2000+ hrs accrued...and it went to 240 hours at DAL. Vacation? Yep...kept their longevity for that, but find themselves a lot more junior in category when vacation bidding comes around(see above). Non-rev travel based on DOH? Yeah...that makes up for everything.. in other words, they got DOH for everything.... except what matters..

Don't get me wrong...lot's of good things for the nwa's in the merger, but until they can use their non-rev boarding priority when they bid for monthly schedules, positions on AE's, and vacations, I'll have to laugh when you ask "how did they lose 3 years" "SERIOUSLY?"

You have access to the same info I do. SERIOUSLY

 

[waveflyer]

So there you have it-
And it's my opinion that the SWA job is worth a good 2+years of seniority relative to what air tran was management wise- and what they were striving for contractually-
Give the integration time to settle in like DAL/NW has had and I think you'll find that this integration will be as well managed as any has ever been- and a whole lot of pilots will be happy and making a whole lot of $$ in an airline growing in ways neither side expected when we started.
Let's let this thing shake out-
And I give my heartfelt strength and encouragement to AA- it is very hard to think about your career being liquidated- and it's certainly not deserved by the employees after the way mgmt has behaved the last 10 years-
Give back all bonuses and then talk about concessions -
Ridiculous

 

[outerlimits]

How did they lose 3 years? SERIOUSLY? Did they not carry over their longevity WRT sick, vacation, and their DOH for non rev travel? I'm tired of hearing how the NW guys lost out. Anyone wanna guess what a '91 hire PMDL lost?



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I bet you are, since your DAL, and you know what you got was not fair.

 

[Scoot 11]

Yeah, I'll take a "guess"... 3 1/2 years worst case for a relatively small number of 91 DAL hires. You need to take another look at the arbitrated list. The top 2000, at least, of the NWA list lost approx. 3 years. As for your other points...sick leave? don't even go there dude....many NWA had 2000+ hrs accrued...and it went to 240 hours at DAL. Vacation? Yep...kept their longevity for that, but find themselves a lot more junior in category when vacation bidding comes around(see above). Non-rev travel based on DOH? Yeah...that makes up for everything.. in other words, they got DOH for everything.... except what matters..

Don't get me wrong...lot's of good things for the nwa's in the merger, but until they can use their non-rev boarding priority when they bid for monthly schedules, positions on AE's, and vacations, I'll have to laugh when you ask "how did they lose 3 years" "SERIOUSLY?"

You have access to the same info I do. SERIOUSLY

I'm not going to hijack a thread on rehashed baloney! Let's just agree to disagree.

 

[spacecadet1]

Back to what's going on at AA, looks like things are starting to unravel very quickly. The next few weeks are going to be very ugly.

 

[ChoadSnazz]

Most of them lost about 2 years. There were some at the bottom that lost a few more than that because Delta hired 600 pilots in 2007/08 and NWA hired a lot less, and year 2000 hires were blended in with those 2007 hires (although the NWA pilots got credit for their longevity even while out on furlough, giving them 8th year pay instead of 3rd year pay after the merge, something NWA did not offer). There were some NWA guys (in the 1995 range) that actually did better than the DL guys in the same area. But overall, it was about 2 years difference, and 3 arbitrators decided that.


Bye Bye---General Lee

General,

Have you even looked at the seniority list or are you just making this up? For starters take a look at the top 4500 or so. The difference is consistently between 2 years 11 months and 3 years 4 months (with only a very few exceptions.) That range is more the norm throughout the list. Only a small number of NWA pilots hired between October 94 and June 95 ended up in the reverse situation. Me personally - 30 years this fall and sitting next to a pre-merger Delta pilot hired 3 years 8 months after me. You're right - the arbitrators decided it, and I accept that, but the OP was correct; it's consistently more like three years throughout the list.

 

[Turtle21]

Yes, it was handled well. And exactly consistent with SWAs history
ALPA was playing games with SWA and YOU know that.

What are you saying? Are you implying that ALPA sacrificed them to SorhWestTWA to American

 

[General Lee]

General,

Have you even looked at the seniority list or are you just making this up? For starters take a look at the top 4500 or so. The difference is consistently between 2 years 11 months and 3 years 4 months (with only a very few exceptions.) That range is more the norm throughout the list. Only a small number of NWA pilots hired between October 94 and June 95 ended up in the reverse situation. Me personally - 30 years this fall and sitting next to a pre-merger Delta pilot hired 3 years 8 months after me. You're right - the arbitrators decided it, and I accept that, but the OP was correct; it's consistently more like three years throughout the list.

I am a 96 hire and mine was closer to the 95 guys at NWA. Mine was about 1 year ahead. Guys I know in the 9000 range were right at 2 years. Then there are the guys at the bottom who were 7 years (2000 NWA hires vs 2007, although they got longevity pay which account for furloughed time). Maybe some Captains at the top had 3 years, but the majority of the list was about 2 years I believe. Some parts vary.


Bye Bye---General Lee