A380 Delayed Another 10 Months

[YourPilotFriend]

AP is saying the CEO of airbus resigned stating Airbus is 10 years behind Boeing.

 

[ableone]

The most important point here is that if they had made the low pass in a Boeing the accident would not have happened. Boeing lets the pilots control the aircraft at all times, not this stupuid engineer deciding that an aircraft below 50 feet must be landing nonsense.


TP

Actually you are incorrect. A pilot flying a Boeing aircraft would probably have not attempted the maneuver. Had the lowspeed flyby been accomplished in a Boeing with the engines similarly unspooled the results would have been similiar. The only difference is that the Boeing could have stalled and suffered a wing drop and roll during the crash.

The airbus controll system did the best job possible to compensate for the pilot's mistakes. The software ensured that the aircraft did not stall and that it crashed in a wings level attitude. This probably allowed the high survival rate in this crash.

 

[Gorilla]

The software ensured that the aircraft did not stall and that it crashed...

GREAT SOFTWARE! I want some of that.

So you're claiming this clown did an intentional flyby at less than 50 feet and well below Vref in an attempt to show off airbus electronics, or what? Configured, and near Vref, any Boeing (or airbus for that matter) wouldn't have the slightest problem roaring away at 4000 fpm or better with a spool-up that's plenty responsive and effective.

Was he that close to stall that he couldn't fly out of it? I don't know all the details, but if he let it get that slow, that low, he's irresponsible, to put it mildly.

 

[ableone]

any Boeing (or airbus for that matter) wouldn't have the slightest problem roaring away at 4000 fpm or better with a spool-up that's plenty responsive and effective.

OOOkay, I am confused. You are saying that he should have been able to spool the engines up faster?

The next time you are in a sim push the thrust levers from idle to the stops and hit the timer. (At ground idle in the Boeing, flight idle clean in a bus) Let me know how much time elapses before the thrust matches the command.

 

[Gorilla]

any Boeing (or airbus for that matter) wouldn't have the slightest problem roaring away at 4000 fpm or better with a spool-up that's plenty responsive and effective.

OOOkay, I am confused. You are saying that he should have been able to spool the engines up faster?

The next time you are in a sim push the thrust levers from idle to the stops and hit the timer. (At ground idle in the Boeing, flight idle clean in a bus) Let me know how much time elapses before the thrust matches the command.

As I mentioned, I am not familiar with the accident. If he allowed the airspeed to decay to an exceptionally low state, yes, he might have had trouble flying out of it. Obviously he was unable.

Engine spool-up varies with configuration and the operation of the particular engine's FADEC. Ground idle? Why should I time ground idle when I'm not on the ground? At a normal flaps 30 or 40 landing in a 737-800, when you firewall the throttles, the airplane does indeed respond very quickly, and at a typical weight VVI will easily exceed 3000 fpm.

So what's the deal? I maintain if he was at Vref, and he asked for (and recieved) MCT or TOGA thrust, the airplane would have happily flown away without the slightest problem. Either his airspeed was grossly low, or the airplane's "protective" software screwed up.

 

[pilot141]

Listen, we can create specific scenarios all day long and that will prove nothing. Everyone can agree that Airbus flight-control logic is more "pro-active" than Boeing.

The original thread was about the A380 and another 10-month delay.

Everyone has heard that Emirates is rumbling about canceling their order. I heard (on a crew bus no less!) that if one other order (even one as small as Virgin's 5 A/C) cancels then Airbus will not be able to make money on the A380.

Two questions: if Emirates cancels their order will it have a domino effect on the industry? Will Virgin, Singapore, UPS and FedEx follow?

Second question: if the A380 never shows up at certain carriers (I'm thinking UPS and FedEx here), who ends up paying for the already enormous sunk infrstructure costs? Runways and taxiways have already been strengthened/widened, and more construction is underway now. If hangars sit unused for a year, will Airbus eat those dollars?

 

[Marko Ramius]

So what's the deal? I maintain if he was at Vref, and he asked for (and recieved) MCT or TOGA thrust, the airplane would have happily flown away without the slightest problem. Either his airspeed was grossly low, or the airplane's "protective" software screwed up.

He was doing a demo at airspeeds below ref. Airbus fbw airplanes don't have a stickshaker or pusher like other planes. The speed region where such devices would typically activate is marked on the speed tape by an orange black tigertail region. Entering that speed region in normal law will activate 'alpha-prot'. This will inhibit further nose up stab trim(similar to the idea behind the speed trim in later model 737's). Additionally, the speed brakes retract, and maximum back stick will result in a speed stabilizing at the top of the tigertail by using pitch only. This is why you'll sometimes hear bus drivers talking about how easy the windshear recovery is in the airplane-you just push the power to toga and hold full back stick to get maximum performance you don't have to play the intermittent stick shaker game. Alpha-floor is another protection that is available anytime autothrust is available(not necessarily engaged). This protection basically sense an actual or impending low-energy situation and applies toga thrust. While some people say it engages at the bottom of the tigertail on the speed tape, it isn't displayed anywhere and it's activation is derived from the rate of speed decay and a few other sensor inputs. Theoretically, it could engage well above alpha-prot depending on how bad of a day you're having out there. The two protections are completely independant of each other, ie if you are smooth enough on the controls, you can fly around just above the stall in alpha-prot and not have alpha-floor and toga power engage. The plane will still crash just fine, it's just won't be stalled when it does it much like the plane in the video. When the airplane is below 50RA, it's in direct law(direct stick to surface relationship) and those protections are disabled for obvious reasons.

All of that is a mouthfull the first time you hear/see it, but it's pretty simple in operation. Get too slow, you won't get a shaker but you'll stay at L/D max just out of the stall, get further out of whack without adding power well then it's coming up to toga. This wouldn't have happened in other planes because you wouldn't have this type of protection system, so you wouldn't be tooling around near stall trying to demo it. Who would want to be that low anyway for a demo? If the plane leaves normal law the only protection is a stall warning aural and your ability to recover in the altitude you have left. I know we all do it to ATP standards but I wouldn't even want to be at 150' trying that!