A type rating question

[Cat Driver]

I have been asked to ferry a US registered DC3 from the southern US to B.C.

The airplane is private registered, do I need a recurrent check ride to make it legal to ferry it on my Canadian ATPL ?

In Canada we do not need yearly check rides if the airplane is privately registered. I have the DC 3 on my license.

Cat Driver

 

[pilotyip]

Are you carrying passengers?

If you have no one except the pilot’s you could ferry it to Canada with no checking. However if you were carrying passengers, this would include a mechanic, you would have to comply with the provisions of 61.58, because you are flying a US registered airplane.

 

[beernuts]

I believe in order to fly a US registered plane you need to hold a US pilot certificate (this can be issued based on a foreign ICAO certificate)

 

[Cat Driver]

Thanks for the info.

And I do hold several US licenses including a Commercial gyroplane pilot license. It is just that it is difficult to remember all the regulations and requirements so thought I would ask here.

Cat Driver.

 

[JAFI]

61.3 Requirement for certificates, ratings, and authorizations.(a) Pilot certificate. A person may not act as pilot in command or in any other capacity as a required pilot flight crewmember of a civil aircraft of U.S. registry, unless that person—

(1) Has a valid pilot certificate or special purpose pilot authorization issued under this part in that person's physical possession or readily accessible in the aircraft when exercising the privileges of that pilot certificate or authorization. However, when the aircraft is operated within a foreign country, a current pilot license issued by the country in which the aircraft is operated may be used; and

(2) Has a photo identification that is in that person's physical possession or readily accessible in the aircraft when exercising the privileges of that pilot certificate or authorization. The photo identification must be a:

(i) Valid driver's license issued by a State, the District of Columbia, or territory or possession of the United States;

(ii) Government identification card issued by the Federal government, a State, the District of Columbia, or a territory or possession of the United States;

(iii) U.S. Armed Forces' identification card;

(iv) Official passport;

-------------

There is more to this reg. but I did not copy it. You get the gist.

JAFI

 

[Cat Driver]

Yeh, I guess I can ferry the thing if I do not get a 61:58 check, but hopefully I can get one done before I leave, its always better to have something you don't need than need sometinng you don't have.

C.D.

 

[avbug]

Catdriver,

Long time, no see.

Under a ferry permit, you can move the airplane without a type rating, without currency, and in many cases, without a SIC. In fact, under a ferry permit, you can do almost anything.

Even without the ferry permit, you do not need a US pilot certificate in order to move an aircraft of US registry.

 

[bocefus]

"Under a ferry permit, you can move the airplane without a type rating, without currency, and in many cases, without a SIC. In fact, under a ferry permit, you can do almost anything."

Not hardly. A "ferry permit" as you call it is a Special Airworthiness Permit, and has nothing to do with the crew requirements. You can however, ask and receive a LOA for that flight only to accomplish your mission

 

[avbug]

Actually, a SAP can be used in conjunction with a LOA to ferry an airplane without a type rating, with less than the minimum crew, with most any modification or change, inoperative engines, and a variety of other possibilities. Done it.

 

[Cat Driver]

O.K. guys let me re explan this question.

When I said "ferry" the airplane I meant deliver it. The airplane I believe has an annual on it and is flying, at least that was my understanding.

I have a DC 3 rating but no US 61:58 check.

I got into a real hassel with an American owner of a PBY in May regarding moving a PBY from London to Tel Aviv, the guy wanted me to fly a PBY that had been stored for eight years outside in London England , and that one we had contracted to get airworthy enough to get an American DAR to issue a ferry permit...but I walked away from the deal when the owner wanted me to fly an overload of fuel and also he said his engineer would sign out an annual to save paying a DAR , so I said call me back when he finishes the work...anyhow I finally walked away and he refused to pay me including my airfare which I had paid to get to England and back....his reason was that he claimed I was not legal to fly the PBY anyhow because I did not have a 61:58 check....

Once burned twice shy, I just thought I would get some advice from the troops here.

So thanks guys, I appreciate you posting the info.

This job sometimes has its irritatuions....

Cat Driver

 

[avbug]

For what it's worth, for a ferry job, the owner should pay for your airfare up front. Or, if it's bid as a package job, the owner should pay at least 50% up front and have security for enroute expenses.

If you're not exercising your US certificate privileges, you don't need a 61.58 check. If you're exercising Canadian privileges, you only need to meet Canadian recency of experience requirements. You do not require a US certificate to fly an aircraft of US registry; you can ferry the airplane on a Canadian certificate, if your Canadian certificate holds a type for the Doug.

Alternately, just go pick it up like everyone else, and don't say anything.

 

[JAFI]

Avbug, I am shocked (just a little) that (you) a FAA Aviation Safety Councilor would suggest that an airman fly a US regersted aircraft without the required certificate or currency. I know it is just the bandit in you comming out. (Although, you did put a smiley face at the end of your statement - not that it matters.) To even hint such advice, IMHO, is contrary to your position.

Ferry pilots should know all the ways to legally transport a US aircraft. It is tough enough to fly some of the junk they have to deal with.

Cat, I think the DC3 requires two pilots. This means you need a current 61.58 check to LEGALLY operate the aircraft with out an LOA. The Ferry permit is a maintence issue and has nothing to do with pilot certification. You may also need to talk to Transport Canada because you are going from US airspace (and rules) to Canada airspace (and rules) with or with out a US LOA/61.58 check/etc. This is done all the time. Contact the warbird community for assistance.

You have been around enough to know what to do. Be careful out there.

JAFI


61.58 Pilot-in-command proficiency check: Operation of aircraft requiring more than one pilot flight crewmember.
(a) Except as otherwise provided in this section, to serve as pilot in command of an aircraft that is type certificated for more than one required pilot flight crewmember, a person must—

(1) Within the preceding 12 calendar months, complete a pilot-in-command proficiency check in an aircraft that is type certificated for more than one required pilot flight crewmember; and

(2) Within the preceding 24 calendar months, complete a pilot-in-command proficiency check in the particular type of aircraft in which that person will serve as pilot in command.

(b) This section does not apply to persons conducting operations under subpart K of part 91, part 121, 125, 133, 135, or 137 of this chapter, or persons maintaining continuing qualification under an Advanced Qualification program approved under SFAR 58.

(c) The pilot-in-command proficiency check given in accordance with the provisions of subpart K of part 91, part 121, 125, or 135 of this chapter may be used to satisfy the requirements of this section.

(d) The pilot-in-command proficiency check required by paragraph (a) of this section may be accomplished by satisfactory completion of one of the following:

(1) A pilot-in-command proficiency check conducted by a person authorized by the Administrator, consisting of the maneuvers and procedures required for a type rating, in an aircraft type certificated for more than one required pilot flight crewmember;

(2) The practical test required for a type rating, in an aircraft type certificated for more than one required pilot flight crewmember;

(3) The initial or periodic practical test required for the issuance of a pilot examiner or check airman designation, in an aircraft type certificated for more than one required pilot flight crewmember; or

(4) A military flight check required for a pilot in command with instrument privileges, in an aircraft that the military requires to be operated by more than one pilot flight crewmember.

(e) A check or test described in paragraphs (d)(1) through (d)(4) of this section may be accomplished in a flight simulator under part 142 of this chapter, subject to the following:

(1) Except as provided for in paragraphs (e)(2) and (e)(3) of this section, if an otherwise qualified and approved flight simulator used for a pilot-in-command proficiency check is not qualified and approved for a specific required maneuver—

(i) The training center must annotate, in the applicant's training record, the maneuver or maneuvers omitted; and

(ii) Prior to acting as pilot in command, the pilot must demonstrate proficiency in each omitted maneuver in an aircraft or flight simulator qualified and approved for each omitted maneuver.

(2) If the flight simulator used pursuant to paragraph (e) of this section is not qualified and approved for circling approaches—

(i) The applicant's record must include the statement, “Proficiency in circling approaches not demonstrated”; and

(ii) The applicant may not perform circling approaches as pilot in command when weather conditions are less than the basic VFR conditions described in §91.155 of this chapter, until proficiency in circling approaches has been successfully demonstrated in a flight simulator qualified and approved for circling approaches or in an aircraft to a person authorized by the Administrator to conduct the check required by this section.

(3) If the flight simulator used pursuant to paragraph (e) of this section is not qualified and approved for landings, the applicant must—

(i) Hold a type rating in the airplane represented by the simulator; and

(ii) Have completed within the preceding 90 days at least three takeoffs and three landings (one to a full stop) as the sole manipulator of the flight controls in the type airplane for which the pilot-in-command proficiency check is sought.

(f) For the purpose of meeting the pilot-in-command proficiency check requirements of paragraph (a) of this section, a person may act as pilot in command of a flight under day VFR conditions or day IFR conditions if no person or property is carried, other than as necessary to demonstrate compliance with this part.

(g) If a pilot takes the pilot-in-command proficiency check required by this section in the calendar month before or the calendar month after the month in which it is due, the pilot is considered to have taken it in the month in which it was due for the purpose of computing when the next pilot-in-command proficiency check is due.

 

[Cat Driver]

For what it's worth, for a ferry job, the owner should pay for your airfare up front. Or, if it's bid as a package job, the owner should pay at least 50% up front and have security for enroute expenses.


Hi again Avbug:

I have two partners in London England and we have flown in over forty different countries during the past eight years delivering aircraft and we never take on a contract without expenses up front.

We had been working on the Cat that I went to England to deliver to Tel Aviv for a couple of months and had already collected around 20,000 Pound Sterling for the work we had done to get the thing safe enough to ferry to Israel.

The owner phoned me and wanted me to come to London as soon as possible so I just booked a flight and went over.

Anyhow in the final analyisis when we gave him our bill for the work done he refused to pay for my airline ticket and the week I spent in London working on the airplane.

I am sure you recall the guy looking for a pilot to ferry the Cat on the Air Tanker site, he finally found someone that was willing to do it his way and it turned into a real clusterf..k right from the first test flight when they intruded into Standstead controlled airspace. And of course screwed up their controllers because no one could talk to them on the handheld they were using. Anyhow the next morning they left loaded to the nuts with fuel and made to about sixty miles north of Paris, where the airplane is still sitting.......hmmmm it is really strange because I went and had a look at it in July and it does not add up...he claimed they had to shut down the left engine because it broke a connecting rod....I've been working on P&W radials for forty years and never yet seen one break a connecting rod in flight (link rod ) and not blow oil all over the cowlings.

There was no sign of any oil leaks period other than normal drool for a radial, and both engines were running when it landed and taxied in because several people were watching it land and taxi in and the prop was not feathered.

But what the hell maybe that crew knows how to keep a P&W 1830 running with a broken link rod and not leak oil.

There of course are a lot more strange issues surrounding that flight that I am not going to mention here.

By the way how can I post some neat pictures on this site?

Cat Driver.

 

[Cat Driver]

JAFI :

That is what I wanted to read, I do not have a FAR book handy so I just wanted to cover all my bases, I spent the summer flying in the Netherlands under a special approval from the Dutch CAA to fly a Dutch registered airplane and conduct type rating training, it took five months for the approval, the same for the CASA in Australia, five months but once you have the paper work everything goes real smooth.

Last year I had a real bad experience with the new homeland security people on a delivery of a part 91 US registered PBY from London England , when we landed at Bangor Maine the airplane was seized and my two British crew mwmbers taken away while Homeland grilled me, anyhow unknown to us the US immigration had changed the rules since 911 and my crew needed a visa to enter the USA on a gen. dec. , had they entered on an airline they would have 90 days without requireing a visa...Anyhow in the end I got the airplane back the next day after paying five hunderd to get my crew a visas and two hunderd and fifty to a customs broker for the airplane...f.ck we had already paid a Canadian company to ensure all that was looked after.

But the airplane was a real hit with everyone and all the officials were friendly as hell and went out of their way to help us...except homeland...they were all business and I wouldn't want to cross one of them...period.

I'm getting to old a cat to be screwed by a kitten so I have no problem asking questions if I'm not sure of the subject...far better to look stupid than to be stupid and do something stupid.anyhow I want to do a 61:58 because the last Douglas I flew was a C117 and that was eight years ago.....By the way the DC 3 is a lot easier to fly that the C117 due to better rudder authority.

Cat Driver

 

[bocefus]

Watch for the guy who thinks he can sign off an annual inspection on a PBY. Sorry, it is a large aircraft, no such thing as an annual inspection

 

[Cat Driver]

OK Bocefus :

The airplane had been stored outside for eight years and the engines had not been prepped for storage and only run once during that time...

So we had many many days of work to get the airplane to a stage that it would be safe to deliver to Israel signed out with a permit to ferry by a DAR, we changed most components on the engine as well as replaced the teflon seals on the props...by the way the prop seals and inspection were done by the engineer that worked for the owner and I was not satisfied that they should in fact be used for anything but the ferry flight due to excessive corrosion pitting in the blade shanks...so thanks for correcting my terminology about the annual inspection....

There is no way that anyone can be completely familiar with regulations, rules and terminology in this business when you work under as many regulatory bodies as we do in our business of repairing and flying these aircraft.......That is why I ask.....
Cat

 

[PBRstreetgang]

Hey,
After doing a bit of ferry flying myself, I figgered out regs are the minimum, insurance companies will play big dog if anything goes wrong. You say, the owner is self insured, beware they may be prepared to lose the hull leaving you the liability(or your family). The first paragraph of the insurance policy usually states "the owner/operator shall maintain the insured aircraft in an airworthy condition" Preflight requirements for any aircraft require that the aircraft is in a condition for safe flight. Ferry permits require the equivalent of a 100HR inspection, this satisifies the inspection requirment. In summary the pilot and aircraft must comply with the regs for the insurance to be in effect. You ferry guys probably know this, this is for info for the would-be ferry pilots.
PBR

 

[PBRstreetgang]

Hey,
US certificated pilot + US registered A/C + US airspace= US ops&regs.
PBR

 

[bocefus]

equivalent of a 100 hour inspection prior to ferry? Where do you guys get this stuff? Under 12,500 aircraft only need an inspection by an AP and a statement that it is safe for the intended flight from A-B and a stipulation that all Airworthiness Directives that are required to be accomplished prior to further flight are in fact accomplished. This is nowhere near the equivalent of a 100 hour inspection. Large aircraft "Ferry Permit" requirements are entirely different. As always, there are exceptions and the issuing FSDO inspector has lattitude, but,
deviation fro the norm is very rare these days. Exceptions for ferrying an aircraft without a type rating when one is required are done with a one time LOA, if you can convince the FSDO ops inspector that you can pull it off. Again, very rare these days, but can be done.
By the way, this is my business

 

[Cat Driver]

Then of course there is that little issue of needing over flight, landing departure and such authority from all foreign airspace that you plan to ferry said aircraft through if the aircraft is being flown on a ferry permit.....that was part of the problem we had with the owner of the Cat that is now sitting in France.

It was very interesting from our perspective after having walked away from that Cat once the questions started from the FAA wanting background information as to just what work we had performed on said aircraft before it was flown out of England, also of course there was the British CAA who had their own concerns triggered by the airspace incursion and the circumstances under which the machine left British airspace..

Bottom line is be very careful in what you do.....far better to walk away from a dodgy kind of operation and stay in good satnding with any regulator than be the one they are asking questions about.

Even if it cost you money as in my case.

Cat

 

[bocefus]

All very true CAT DRIVER, this is why international ferrying is best left to those who have experience with such things. After reading some of the wild ideas some folks have about what the FAA requirements are, they would have a fun time dealing with UK CAA or French DGCA and so on. It does not get any easier than dealing with the FAA, we take them for granted.

 

[Cat Driver]

Oh yes, how true....

And just imagine how they would fare in places like Saudia Arabia, we lost an engine on take off in Jeddah in Aug of 1999 on a delivery out of South Africa, seven months and three visas later we got the engine changed and out of there...then there is Egypt, Angola, and Kenya to name a few of the more interesting places to get an education in bureaucracy...

Cat Driver