Welcome to Flightinfo.com

  • Register now and join the discussion
  • Friendliest aviation Ccmmunity on the web
  • Modern site for PC's, Phones, Tablets - no 3rd party apps required
  • Ask questions, help others, promote aviation
  • Share the passion for aviation
  • Invite everyone to Flightinfo.com and let's have fun

A Perfect World

  • Thread starter Thread starter FL717
  • Start date Start date
  • Watchers Watchers 9

Welcome to Flightinfo.com

  • Register now and join the discussion
  • Modern secure site, no 3rd party apps required
  • Invite your friends
  • Share the passion of aviation
  • Friendliest aviation community on the web

FL717

As the World Turns
Joined
Jul 23, 2002
Posts
472
I am going to attempt to start a thread here that follows along this train of thought:

What is an "ideal" airline industry? What are the average expectations for most of you, and what can "we" do to make that a reality? Is there a such a thing as "perfect"? Why are the Legacy carriers always going in the crapper, and what is wrong with Low Cost carriers? Who are these people and where do they come from? Why is it the checkout line I pick always has the person in front of me paying by check. You ever wonder why...oops..... sorry! You get my point. RJDC, Contract carriers, Wholly owned, etc. Throw it out.

It is a very broad thread, and obviously will have many differing perspectives, but this is my attempt to get the very talented educated and opinionated out in the open, and speak your mind. It will also stop me and many others from "hijacking' all the other threads that eventually end up bantering about this versus that.

BTW - I've argued with many people on this website, and will continue. Nothing personal. I have called names, (sorry FlyDeltasJets..I apologize..), but really want to put that aside, and let it all go right here.

I will put my thoughts out as we go along. Enough for now.

Anyone??
 
Cool Pic!

I like your picture, is it a real plane or a model. Did the tug, or high winds do that?
 
Actually that pic was sent to me by a friend. I was told on another thread about it plus received several PM's about it. It apparantly is a Saab from Pinnacle (formerly Express One Airlink) and was in maintenance, not chocked and ended up in that position. I was told they craned it out and that airplane is still in service known as the "Ditch Witch".

As far as this thread let me make some assertions.

1. Anyone that says that pilots at Low Cost carriers are to blame for their furloughs and wage concessions, obviously looks differently at the question of is the glass half full or half empty.

2. Legacy carriers made money simultaneously for years while SWA was also making a killing. Nobody gave 2 sh!ts at that time about their pay or bennies.. or the "race to the bottom". All they cared about was their "race to the top". Now that the legacy carriers cannot sustain profitability without a $1000.00 ticket from Atlanta to Witchita, its "oh my god" those guys are "eroding the profession". Management should be fired for agreeing to a contract that could not possibly be sustained in a downturn, or against obvious compettition.

3. If SWA or all the other LCC's shut down tomorrow, someone else will start one right behind them, and Legacy crriers will still only make money during good economic times. It is ridiculous for the travelling public not to have affordable air transportation. Legacy carriers need to fix their costs to a sustainable level, and they will be able to co-exist with LCC's. SWA has proved that for years, and so will at least one other airline... gosh who could that be.

There's more, but I'll wait.
 
FL717, I think you need to pack your bags and head for Iraq, I think a man of your expertise is needed there. My head just swims thinking of what it will take to get the country from where it is today to where it needs to be. To get back to the subject it is easier just to accept stuff and roll with the punches than to fight it and change it, even if it is for the better. We all want to make a diffrence in this world, all I can say is pick your battles wisely.
 
Okay.. on topic.. what do YOU think? Is my thinking in line with yours or am I just out in left field? Battles don't worry me. I spent 6 years serving with the Buzzard, Ball and Hook (USMC -Eagle Globe and Anchor). This is just an internet bulletin board, and outside of the useful info people can get here (which this topic is NOT), its all good in life. I'm a happy person, and I'd just like to understand some of the bitterness out there. My profession doesn't change my outlook on life, and this board certainly doesn't change my life any.

For the record, my thinking has gotten me along very nicely in life for just under 40 years both in and out of this profession. I'm a TWA brat, my father was there almost 30 years. I learned to fly as a teenager, and have several cool stories on TWA flights on a B-707 jumpseat. I was practically raised on an airplane, and have seen the good, bad and ugly, again both in and out of this profession. I just for the life of me can't understand the attitudes of some of these people here. Every thread on the Interview Board ends up in a debate that seems to get nowhere, and I believe there IS an answer to everything, and there IS right.. and wrong. I can also yell as loud as the rest.

I'm just trying to get some of those posters to come here and really break down their assessment whether it be economics (not me) or philosophical. Here is a chance to politely and succinctly say it without hijacking someone elses thread.
 
Okay, I'm not a scholar of airline political history...I'm just a dumb pilot. It seems to me, though, that the industry was a lot more stable before Carter and Reagan deregulated it. Maybe the C.A.B.--or something like it--needs to come back.
 
The Avatar:

One of my first landings. I knew something was wrong when the Captain was screaming "centerline centerline".

Perfect Industry:

One that offers some Job Security. It's a foriegn word, i know. But it does exist in some places.
 
Fellow TWA'er...

FL717--Since I'm looking at being furloughed by AA, I think the following is the perfect airline position:

TWA with job security, DAL +1% pay, Contract '98 work rules and my 881230 DOH!:D TC
 
Deregulation

Typhoon1244 said:
It seems to me, though, that the industry was a lot more stable before Carter and Reagan deregulated it. Maybe the C.A.B.--or something like it--needs to come back.
It was. No matter which airline you flew, all charged the same fare between the same points. You had more point-to-point service instead of hubbing and spoking. The airlines like hubbing and spoking, but do their customers??? I don't. SW has the right idea.

On the other hand, many airlines lost money on routes with empty planes and it was rare that that the CAB approved another carrier to fly that same route.

Just the same, some re-regulation is needed, in my 2¢ opinion.

Suggested reading: both volumes of Flying the Line and Hard Landing by Pettinger.
 
What was the reason for de-regulation? I have read Flying the Line 1 and 2 back when I flew for an ALPA carrier, and actually remember when the industry was "let loose", but don't remember why. In your opinion did it achieve the desired effects?

Also, I agree about the hub and spoke pitfalls. I really like the fact that FL is doing alot of point to point flying. It helps business, and from a pilots perspective, I can be on a 3 day trip and only see ATL on the first and last leg of the trip.
 
I consider myself a pretty die-hard capitalist. I'm frequently torqued when I see government intervention in what is the simplest, most elegantly effective, even instinctive economic model known to man. Free competition and innovation, coupled with rock-solid property rights and decent infrastructure solves a myriad of problems. Not all, of course, but when was the last time you worried about a band of rebel guerillas accosting you on the way home from the supermarket? When was the last time you heard of an American starving to death? Problems like these usually generate an outcry for government intervention in the Third World, yet the same problems are not solved in the USA with Bradleys at every street corner or tons of cheese dropping from a C-17. Our economic system effectively provides for most every basic need, usually in abundant surplus. Capitalism works.

But

I don't care! I can take for granted that I'll have cheese to place between my crackers. I'm confident no one is going to kill me for the contents of my refrigerator. I know that almost without fail I will have a modern, computerized, efficient, and reliable automobile at my disposal. Heck, despite being furloughed, I've turned down two job offers on this day alone! Such is the confidence that our economic largesse grants us. Thusly I move up Maslows hierarchy, I'm looking for self-fulfillment. I want to do reasonably productive, but more importantly fun, work. I want to provide for my family in such over-abundance I ought to be ashamed, but I won't be. I want to be able to cut ridiculously sized checks to charities and churches. I want to drive an SUV. Perhaps three of them. I want my neighbors to wonder how I can buy all this stuff while working so little.

Therefore

Screw capitalism. At least when it comes down to my career and my life. I, and I think most of us, realize what an amazing deal we have here. Ever break through that low overcast into the sunshine, in awe at this profession and what it offers? People break down the doors at HR to be in that seat. People will defy the collective will and anger of thousands to cross a picket line. People will work three jobs so as to volunteer to sit in that seat. There is a market for labor. If it were a truly free market, we'd be screwed. Done for. Were it not for collective bargaining and the threat of an economically destructive force so wielded, were it not for the limited protection afforded by strict licensing, were it not for the uphill struggle required to build this career, no airline would have to pay it's pilots more than $5.75 per hour. We are stuck with a job that is too much fun for our own good. Therefore I'm willing to mix in any external factor that has a chance of jacking up that wage. Bring on a union, and make it a powerful one. Make it industry wide, with tighter controls on individual MECs. Let us stick to, and work towards, and even sacrifice our quick upgrade for the fulfillment of ALPAs stated goal: The removal of pilot compensation from the competitive equation. More external factors: The JAA has ridiculous standards for the ATPL, bring em on if that fends off a few more eager beavers. Flight instruction as an experience builder? Great. I cannot count how many aspiring pilots have been permanently derailed because that was a river they would not cross. Lets create a new dues assessment that buys out all advertising space in Flying Magazine, Flight Training, Pilot, et al that would be used to recruit new grist for the pilot factories. That would be taking the supply problem into our own hands :) Bring on government enforced crew rest and duty time regulations. How about FAR 121.999 - Crew Nutrition? If the government chose to dictate who flies what routes I guarantee it would be a disaster, and it goes without saying, horribly inefficient. But it would likely create more pilot seats and less pressure on costs. That's a good thing in the Cardinal household, so bring it on. I simply don't care what the common man is paying for air travel. The economics textbook says that there is a collective drain, or at least less of a benefit, to society when goods or services are produced in a more costly way. But we needn't care, we can buy a V70, or an X5, or a Land Cruiser, and it would not bother my conscience if as a result of this inefficiency the GDP growth for the quarter was .00000003% less.

Encroachment by Low Cost Carriers - And their effect in the absence of the Utopia presented above.

This is the impression that the Citrus boys on this board seem to be under: "Mainline types think LCC pilots should never have taken jobs at these lowish payrates, and think the world would be a better place if the LCC pilots walked and didn't fly again until they were working under the Delta 2000 contract." Well I don't think this is the message they are trying to convey, as it's quite unrealistic. They see you as having considerable choice and control in the matter. WN, FL, F9 , Spirit (for you, Mad Dog), jetBlue (IATA JB?) etc essentially offer a deal to their pilots: Earn less and expand more. It's a variation on the same deal Crandall offered his pilots at American. "Buy this B Scale and we'll grow like gangbusters." It is admittedly a pretty sweet deal, because that rapid growth grants one rapid furlough protection, and rapid upgrade. But rapid upgrade cleverly masks the reality of doing more work for less money. Ignoring 9/11 and bankruptcy for a moment, the 4 year Frontier CA might be taking home more than his 4 year United FO buddy. But management is getting a lot more out of the Frontier guys hide, even though the poor pilot may not realize it. For the moment we'll ignore the impact on the UA pilots compensation, but this scenario does at the very least lower the average pay. The real difficulty is the propagation of this effect. At the bargaining table, the Frontier or Airtran pilots (and the rest of the employee groups, really) are not ignorant. They know what their options are. Lower pay and continued growth, or Higher pay and abated or even negative growth, manifested through managerial choice or an industrial action, it doesn't matter which. Growth removes the sting of the lower pay scale, and so that is what the pilots at the LCCs have decisively chosen. We see the product of that decision, Airtran takes new 717s, Frontier takes new Airbii, while United parks 'em and Delta scraps 'em, the pilots and the pay scales associated with those aircraft are similarly erased. But what is the LCC pilot groups unanimously chose the second option, Higher pay and less growth? This would be harmonious with removing pay from the competitive equation. Everybody would be on the same footing. Flight crew pay isn't a large percentage of total costs, so the national union could more or less simultaneously jack the pay across the industry without the threat of invasion by lines with lower costs.

And FL717, as an olive branch reference the rowdy AA thread, if Airtran called tomorrow, I'd be there :)
 
Cardinal said:
And FL717, as an olive branch reference the rowdy AA thread, if Airtran called tomorrow, I'd be there :)

I understand.... and believe me I hear you!

You bring up something that is not talked about alot. B-Scales. This my seem odd coming from me.. but.. I am absolutely opposd to B-scales. I also am opposed to any "carrier within a carrier'. If your business plan cannot sustain itself without getting part of your employees to work for less than the existing contract, then your plan is FLAWED.. period. Again... I have to point to SWA.
BTW - I DO NOT believe SWA pilots are under compensated.

What was your point on the B-1900 Captain scale per ASM that we never finished on another thread? I think you were going down the economics road, and my point was regarding my career, and job security. Also I believe you or someone came up with a hypothetical payscale for 117 passenger jet. Where is that from?
 
From FL717:

"What was the reason for de-regulation? I have read Flying the Line 1 and 2 back when I flew for an ALPA carrier, and actually remember when the industry was "let loose", but don't remember why. In your opinion did it achieve the desired effects?"

Part of the reason may be Ted Kennedy was looking for an issue to pimp off of. The book Hard Landings tells about how he was looking for an issue to give him some press. De-regulation became his gig at that time. There were other politicans involved (both Dems and Reps) who supported this effort.

As to why, guess it was time to kick off the training wheels off and see if companies could survive on their own without gubernment assistance. It seems like it has been a blessing and a curse. A blessing in the sense that more of the population flies than before deregulation so there are more commercial aviation related jobs. The curse is the salaries, etc. aren't as strong as they once were. Do miss the old Ozark and Frontier Airlines though!
 
717,

Present and accounted for...

However, gotta run for an ASAP to MDW and then back home tonight... I promise to post a long winded opinionated book on this subject shortly... sorry..

BTW, Cardinal... your spiel is as beautiful as the girl next to your name... Good work pal.
 
V70T5 said:
717,

Present and accounted for...

However, gotta run for an ASAP to MDW and then back home tonight... I promise to post a long winded opinionated book on this subject shortly... sorry..

BTW, Cardinal... your spiel is as beautiful as the girl next to your name... Good work pal.

V70T5 .. I'm very interested in hashing this out with you. I gotta leave town tonight to start a trip (I gotta pay the bills you know)... Won't be back online 'til Monday AM, so don't think I wussed out on this because I wanna hear it all, and either agree or defend my ground, and maybe learn something.

Double thumbs up to the girl in the avatar Cardinal!
 
FL717 said:
I believe you or someone came up with a hypothetical payscale for 117 passenger jet. Where is that from?

It's been a long weekend, and She is a lovely creature, isn't she.
This is the payscale I referred to, although it isn't all that hypothetical. It's Delta 2000 numbers for the 737-300:

CA
Yr
1 202.80
2 204.32
3 205.99
4 207.63
5 209.29
6 210.95
7 212.61
8 214.26
9 215.91
10 217.58
11 219.26
12 220.88

FO
Yr
1 54.00
2 109.31
3 127.92
4 131.02
5 134.15
6 137.54
7 141.38
8 144.63
9 146.17
10 148.17
11 149.53
12 150.86

I don't have Airtran rates anywhere and couldn't find them. I'm going to go way out on a limb here and say that the Airtran CA scale bears a much greater resemblance to the DL FO rates than anything else. Let's face it, that’s a lot of money in the DL cockpit. But the more the better.

The hardcore idealists, who I agree with on most issues, are chanting "Survival of the fittest," "Free markets," "Let the weak perish," etc, etc, in the face of the most recent airline aid package. They see competition as the solution to cost issues and over-capacity. It is, of course. But as we are all a bunch of "costs" it does us no good to compete so as to reduce ourselves.

Imagine if the Federal Government slapped a brand new $30 "TSA Metal Detector Trust Fund Fee" on every ticket sold. Would the enlightened management of jetBlue or Airtran et al, fall on their swords? They've said that per-leg taxes effect them more then the majors, as they are flying shorter legs. Neeleman and Barrett gonna jump out the 10th floor window? I doubt it. They'd adapt. Now it's contract time. The pilots have the option of putting forth an ultimatum, assuming they have the cojones. "Here is what we will work for. You can take these costs and keep growing, or you can stagnate with these costs. That is your choice." It would not be so simple as that, and it would likely take years just to declare an impasse. But the pilots could if they wanted to.

Imagine for a moment that an MEC, was able to negotiate a contract that, while being livable for the rank-and-file, included large, under-the-table kickbacks for the individual MEC and Negotiating Committee members. We'd all agree that such an action would be wrong. Those crooked individuals look around in the crew room, and decide that their own wallets are more important than the pay of their peers in the company.

In effect the low-cost guys glance across the alley at the neighboring concourse, and decide that their upgrade is more important than maintaining the pay of their peers in the industry. Growth is the kickback management uses to leverage them downwards. And lest we forget, the pilots would be ultimate winners in this battle, as their pay would rise as well! But the battle is never fought...
 
Cardinal, lets not forget that the Average DAL pilot also probably flyies a good 20-40% less hours per month than AirTran... this is a major pay issue, as it goes to the competative advantae of the LCC's with their higher productivity.....

So I guess we need to decide as pilots... do we want to head towards 70-90 hours per month or work back towards 40-60? I for one am well worked after a 60 hour month...
 
if you want to know why the airlines were deregulated read von Hayek's "Road To Serfdom". It's all about free markets and von Hayek's economic theories were the backbone of both Margaret Thatcher's and Ronald Reagan's economic policies during the late 70s-early 80s. it pretty much came down to the fact that the US was in a huge economic crisis, and the government was pulling its involvement out of many industries, including the airlines. the opinion that the Pan Ams, etc of the industries didnt need regulation, and that lower cost carriers would offer the competition and low price fares that would stimulate the economy.
 
Further info

Try running web searches on Alfred Kahn, Phil Bakes, Norman Minetta, and Sen. Edward Kennedy.

Here's a link to a piece that Dr. Kahn wrote about degregulation.

This link is a piece a Southern Illinois University professor wrote about deregulation. It's an excellent summary of the issue.
 
Last edited:
Bobby--nice links. The last one offers a tremendous summary for both sides of the issue.

As for the question, I must profess that I'm another free market advocate. Having graduated Summa Comme Lata from Moo U in Econ, I have rudimentary knowledge of the system. True, I work for a carrier that is not hurting at the moment, but I do believe in the free market and what it represents.

That being said, I don't believe any addtional regulation is necessary for our system. Note that I said additional; sufficient regulatory restrictions exist to maintain an efficient airline industry. Not neat, not necessarily easy, but efficient. Let me explain.

We already have aviation regulations and laws out the wazoo...Licensing regs, anti-trust and monopoly regs, predatory pricing restrictions, FAA and DOT mandates, and CFRs just to name a few. Don't think for a minute that the Adam Smith's dreaded "free hand of enterprise" is swooping down from the heavens without hinderance. No way.

To start a LCC, for example, hundreds of details must met or exceed FAA regulatory criteria. It takes at least a year to make that happen, and a year's worth of work requires a lot of money. Without that money, your LCC won't even get off the ground, so to speak. Thus, the old adage is correct: it takes money to make money. A LCC will not gain the investor's dollars without a viable plan, which of course inhibits new entrys into the market.

Is that FAA certification process a form of "regulation" by old CAB standards? You bet. Does it allow a totally free market to develop? Nope--those existing laws and regulations require compliance and make new competitors in the market gather their force carefully prior to entering the fray.

I could argue that FAA licensing requirements also parallel the CAB function of regualtion. In short, one must jump through a sequentially higher set of qualification hoops on the way to becoming a professional pilot. This licensing regulation is therefore tantamount to establishing a "professional pilot" class, a group of skilled laborers that have credentials to legally fly passengers/cargo. If they are not treated well, they may strike (though provisions of yet other federal laws) to gain the treatment they believe they deserve. Thus both pilot generation as well as pay (when necessary) are dictated by existing regulations.

Should the industry receive federal loans to survive? I suggest the answer is yes, since the industry-shared economic hardships are a result of external forces (loss of ridership due to Gulf II, increased terror alerts and unfunded mandates such as security fees) that could not have been altered by industry planning or forethought. A bad economy is not enough to warrant a bail out, but government interference of any sort during these difficult economic times is reason enough for a little help.

Anyway, that's my take on the subject. As for me, I just count my blessings every day that I have a healthy family and a job I enjoy.

Best of luck to all--and I mean it.
 

Latest resources

Back
Top