A different NJA question, I promise!!

[Speedtree]

Thanks to all the NJA guys who take the time to post for inquiring minds.

Besides the money and logging the time, what's the difference between CA and FO at NetJets? (for all you smart asses I'm not talking about decision making etc) This may sound like a strange question but basically what I am saying is, If the money doesn't matter that much and I don't need the time, who cares what seat I'm sitting in right? Am I missing anything?

Basically, I am a 121 Regional CA making good money. I live in base so I drive to work which makes me happier than the next guys and I love going to work every week. I'm just thinking about the next 30 years. I don't really have a great desire to work for a major, at least any that are hiring right now but I'm concerned about the stability of the regional industry so I'm considering NJA. I also wouldn't mind the ability to move around if I wanted. I can actually afford to come work there. What do ya'll think? I can't imagine your SICs get treated like crap.

Thanks in advance.
​

 

[T-1GUY]

I have to say on the whole, 95% of the captains I fly with are just as willing to vacuum the carpet and take the trash out. The teamwork is awesome. I only had one capt in 15 months of working there that was too good to soil himself with any FO duties. He by far is the exception...

 

[captain dad]

Speed, you are on the right track. There is very little that would make me want the left seat other than pay. I get to fly the left seat from time to time and yes it is nice to switch seats once in a while just to mix it up. The QOL here compared to any regional and most, if not all, majors is much higher. I flew for the regionals for almost ten years. When I came here I had to flush all the garbage and change my thinking 180 degrees. This place is not an airline and it will make you change your perceptions in a big way. Personally, I am never leaving if I can help it. I felt that way before the new contract and I still do now.

So to answer your question, all I can think of is vacation bidding and maybe schedule bidding. The more senior you are in your seat, the more likely you will get your first pic for VACA and 18 day, 15 day, sched. No big deal in the grand scheme of things.

Life is a journey, not a destination so enjoy the ride.

 

[Guitar Guy]

Speedtree - I've met several older pilots here who share a somewhat similar outlook to yours. They don't really care about being a PIC. Some of them prefer to sit as an SIC on a larger aircraft (like a Falcon or G200) than to be a PIC on a smaller plane.

QOL means different things to different people. If you don't mind the money differential, the SIC lifestyle can be pretty good here.

For me, I prefer being a PIC and logging up the time, just in case I should need it some day. I do know that some guys want to be a PIC here because it helps them pick up outside contract flying because they are a current and qualified 135 PIC.

In the end, the decision to upgrade is up to you. There's no "up or out" policy here with regards to upgrading.

 

[FLYLOW22]

Besides the money and logging the time, what's the difference between CA and FO at NetJets?​

Seniority and a paycheck.

Both pilots work as a team and meet in the middle but one guy has to set the tone and pace for the crew... PIC.

The crew is a team though. Silent cockpits just don't work at NJA. There is far too much to get done.

Oh! And EXPERIENCE. We operate in such a non standard, random environment that prior experience is very helpful.

Most times, that experience will come from the PIC just because he/she has been there before. Prior experience is a powerful tool here. Even if the PIC sounds crazy for asking to do things a certain way, there is usually a reason.

 

[jtf]

I'm not sure if want to know the actual duty differences between CA and FO, but I'll tell you. Here the CA does the vast majority of the preflight and after flight walk arounds while the FO takes care of the inside- cleaning, stocking, restocking at our various supply lockers, arranging the catering, taking care of the coffee/ ice/ and newspapers. Like someone else said above, almost every captain helps with the cleaning and other inside things when they have time. The CA also almost always sends the times into the company after each flight, orders up paperwork, and fills out the aircraft logbook. The CA is usually the one who waits inside the FBO to meet and greet the pax once the airplane is ready and the FO often loads and unloads the baggage while the pax get onboard, though most captains will help there also if there is a lot to put in or if they just happen to be near the baggage door when the bags come out. Typically both pilots are busy and help eachother get everything done once they finish their own duties.

If the pay difference wasn't so great or my wife made a similar salary I would happily stay FO (less responsibility and stress and better relative seniority). I would love to bid over into the big Gulfstream or BBJ programs as an FO and do that kind of flying, but the pay difference is just too big for me not to upgrade on small equipment. I'm on 3rd year FO pay on the 18 day schedule and this will be my first year that I'll beat my CA salary at the regional I was at, but my quality of life and the benefits here are just soooooo much better that it has been well worth the change and I don't plan on leaving unless something weird happens (this is aviation and lots of weird stuff happens in this profession).

 

[fischman]

As far as I'm concerned, we are a TEAM when out on the road. The only difference is that I get paid more, and I usually look better than the guy I fly with. Isn't that right Flylow?

You are typed in the plane. You want the left seat? Have at it.

Some form of standardization is, of course, required. Therefore, USUALLY the PIC takes care of everything outside the plane, and the SIC takes care of everything inside. If I get done with my postflight first, and I see a vac needs to be done, I do it. If my SIC gets done cleaning first, and someone needs to babysit the fueling process, they do it.

The owners show up early and the bags need to be loaded? If I get to it first I do it. If my SIC gets to it first, they do it.

The bottom line is that I don't care who does what, as long as it gets done safely.

 

[skiandsurf]

As far as I'm concerned, we are a TEAM when out on the road. The only difference is that I get paid more, and I usually look better than the guy I fly with. Isn't that right Flylow?

You are typed in the plane. You want the left seat? Have at it.

Some form of standardization is, of course, required. Therefore, USUALLY the PIC takes care of everything outside the plane, and the SIC takes care of everything inside. If I get done with my postflight first, and I see a vac needs to be done, I do it. If my SIC gets done cleaning first, and someone needs to babysit the fueling process, they do it.

The owners show up early and the bags need to be loaded? If I get to it first I do it. If my SIC gets to it first, they do it.

The bottom line is that I don't care who does what, as long as it gets done safely.

Good post and a good attitude. I like the motto "dont do your job, do what needs to be done".

Now another NJs questions...
I flew with a check airman the other day, and he wants the after landing checklist done ON THE RUNWAY below 40 kts. I have NEVER heard of this. I told him he was crazy. Any thoughts?

 

[gutshotdraw]

He's nuts. You're right. I would enquire to our Director of Standards if that happened to me. Just sayin'

 

[CA1900]

I flew with a check airman the other day, and he wants the after landing checklist done ON THE RUNWAY below 40 kts. I have NEVER heard of this. I told him he was crazy. Any thoughts?

Just that I agree with you. I'll flip off the landing lights as we clear, but nothing more.Until we're firmly on a taxiway at a slow speed, the checklist isn't coming out, and my head's staying upright and looking.

Because I've never gotten a surprise as I'm exiting a runway......

 

[Speedtree]

Thanks guys. That's about what I figured. I've flown corporate before for almost 4 years; emptied the lav, gotten catering, cleaned the plane etc. I actually miss most (not all) of that job, interacting with the pax, loading bags, catering and all that. It's frustrating to sit in the a/c waiting for the ground handlers to get the carry-on bags out of the back so my late passengers can get to their connections. I've even done that myself at my regional when the situation calls for it, but it's nice sometimes to have all that under your control and I don't mind working.

Still can't make up my mind. It's tougher when you have more options and like your current job. I'm not sure I want to be away from the family for 7 days.

 

[bmxandjets]

I'm not sure I want to be away from the family for 7 days.

that is a tough pill to swallow...

 

[Guitar Guy]

that is a tough pill to swallow...

It can be for some guys (and gals). For me, the days usually go back fairly quickly on the road, especially if you're flying with a good guy (or gal) so being out for 7 days wasn't a problem to me. Plus, knowing that you have a week off when you get home is great and helps to balance the 7 days away from home.

But for some people, 7 days is too long. If so, there is a 15-day schedule at NJA as well the 18-day schedule which allows one to bid for shorter tours as part of the preferences. That's not to say that you'll always be gone for less than 7 days on the 18-day Fixed schedule, but it is a possibility.

As others have said, NJA isn't for everyone. Do your research and make an informed decision about what is best for you and your situation.

 

[skiandsurf]

I'm not sure I want to be away from the family for 7 days.

The 18 day sched is typically 6 day trips, and the 15 day sched is 5 day trips.

Get your application in, start the waiting time. I do think that this is a great job, but upgrades are slow. I am guessing 7+ yrs for a newhire today.

 

[JungleJett]

that is a tough pill to swallow...

So is:

• commuting
• crappy benefits
• lack of growth
• little retirement
• working on narrow margins
• poor relationships with management
• instability of the airlines
• mergers
• ALPA National
• lack of bases to choose from
• airport terminals
• airport food
• airline food
• lack or respect from management
• lack of respect from your peers
• lack of respect from passengers
• flying to the same damn airports
• being number 90 in EWR
• humping a 40 pound pubs bag
• jepps revisions
• new hires with less than 500TT
• furloughs
• bankruptcy
• sitting reserve
• sitting ARC/hot standby/airport appreciation
• lack of advancement
• eight hour overnights
• standup overnights
• crappy hotels
• paying for your own room for training/recurrent/PC's
• crashpads in Queens
• Regionals always looking for the next handout
• concessions
• destroyed pensions
• arguing with ops to get grew meals delivered
• get called to the carpet for calling fatigued
• 13 days off after 8 years.
• I will stop here.

The above represents commonly heard complaints from the airline industry....some are better and some are worse....some are from personal experience.


I think the glamor days of the airlines are over. It is certainly not what it used be and they are one bomb scare of attack away from dissolving...without the governments help. I flew for a great regional with a pretty good relationship with management and I am not sorry I left. I miss the people. I am new and I may have consumed mass amounts of koolaid but I have yet to talk to one person who does not like it at NJA. There are issues everywhere but I think you will less of them here. My brother has been on the 7 & 7 for about 8 years and does not mind it. He has two young kids as well. It is tough to be away but the 7 days he has at home are nice.

 

[JungleJett]

The 18 day sched is typically 6 day trips, and the 15 day sched is 5 day trips.

Get your application in, start the waiting time. I do think that this is a great job, but upgrades are slow. I am guessing 7+ yrs for a newhire today.

That is the first time I have seen 7 years...4-5 is what I keep hearing. I hope the latter is true....but I am ZERO hurry.

 

[Guitar Guy]

Now another NJs questions...
I flew with a check airman the other day, and he wants the after landing checklist done ON THE RUNWAY below 40 kts. I have NEVER heard of this. I told him he was crazy. Any thoughts?

In Appendix B of the Flight/Training/Standards book, on page B-28, it says that there should be no movement of any switches until clear of the runway or until the aircraft is established at a "taxi speed". The After Landing checklist is not to be accomplished until after both pilots accomplish their respective flows and the PF has called for that checklist.

 

[Guitar Guy]

That is the first time I have seen 7 years...4-5 is what I keep hearing. I hope the latter is true....but I am ZERO hurry.

It's just my guess but I think for someone hired today, 4-5 years is a little too optimistic for upgrade. Seven years might be a little to the long side, but not bad.

During one of the IBB presentations, I listened to our MEC chairman say that upgrade was running 5 years for those on property and was expected to jump up from there for anyone not yet on the seniority list.

 

[bluepost]

Good post and a good attitude. I like the motto "dont do your job, do what needs to be done".

Now another NJs questions...
I flew with a check airman the other day, and he wants the after landing checklist done ON THE RUNWAY below 40 kts. I have NEVER heard of this. I told him he was crazy. Any thoughts?

Is this guy a 299 Line Check guy in the X? Is he pretty tall and about 40 with goofy shoes? Rides a bike and is dating a chick from NM or AZ?

If so he pulled the same crap with me on a debrief.

 

[skiandsurf]

Is this guy a 299 Line Check guy in the X? Is he pretty tall and about 40 with goofy shoes? Rides a bike and is dating a chick from NM or AZ?

If so he pulled the same crap with me on a debrief.

B..... I..... N.... G.... O

 

[Speedtree]

So is:

• commuting (don't commute)
• crappy benefits (my benefits aren't bad)
• lack of growth (the future growth at NJ could be just as marginal)
• little retirement (our retirement is above average for a regional)
• working on narrow margins (always subject to change)
• poor relationships with management (our relationship was good until the profit margins dropped. Can happen anywhere)
• instability of the airlines (aviation's a gamble, enjoy the upswing)
• mergers (also could happen anywhere)
• ALPA National (agreed)
• lack of bases to choose from (I live in base)
• airport terminals (from what I understand you guys spend a fair amount of time there as well. I am not that particular)
• airport food (depends on the airport, I work at variety and pack food)
• airline food (all we get are pretzels)
• lack or respect from management (always subject to change)
• lack of respect from your peers (I'm not sure this is limited to the airlines. I don't see that at my airline)
• lack of respect from passengers (I respect my passengers and they as a whole respond well. Are you saying all the private passengers are a bundle of fun.
• flying to the same damn airports (we have enough variety for me although different is good)
• being number 90 in EWR (chah-ching)
• humping a 40 pound pubs bag (agreed, minor inconvenience for me)
• jepps revisions (I guess I don't see this as a big deal. One leg twice a month and they are done)
• new hires with less than 500TT (haven't had any problems so far, keeps me awake)
• furloughs (anywhere's a gamble)
• bankruptcy (see above)
• sitting reserve (won't have to unless things get really bad)
• sitting ARC/hot standby/airport appreciation (see above)
• lack of advancement (not sure what your point is here. Once you become CA on the biggest a/c that's it, no matter where you are)
• eight hour overnights (we are guaranteed 8 hours at the hotel and I don't see these too often. I complain about the 20 hour overnights. From what I've read NJ overnights aren't all that glorious everynight)
• standup overnights (don't bid them)
• crappy hotels (our hotels are actually not bad)
• paying for your own room for training/recurrent/PC's (n/a)
• crashpads in Queens (n/a)
• Regionals always looking for the next handout
• concessions (we voted them in what can I say)
• destroyed pensions (no pension, pretty good 401 (k)
• arguing with ops to get grew meals delivered (n/a)
• get called to the carpet for calling fatigued
• 13 days off after 8 years.
• I will stop here.

The above represents commonly heard complaints from the airline industry....some are better and some are worse....some are from personal experience.


I think the glamor days of the airlines are over. It is certainly not what it used be and they are one bomb scare of attack away from dissolving...without the governments help. I flew for a great regional with a pretty good relationship with management and I am not sorry I left. I miss the people. I am new and I may have consumed mass amounts of koolaid but I have yet to talk to one person who does not like it at NJA. There are issues everywhere but I think you will less of them here. My brother has been on the 7 & 7 for about 8 years and does not mind it. He has two young kids as well. It is tough to be away but the 7 days he has at home are nice.

You make a lot of valid points and a bunch of guys are glad to get out. I enjoy flying for my regional and I have it pretty good right now so that's why my decision would be much more difficult.

Here's a question I have a baby due late this summer. Suppose I apply and suppose I interview and get hired. What's the possibility of getting time off for the baby?

 

[imacdog]

There are plenty of guys here that do whatever they want, despite what the SOPs say. A lot more than my previous airline, that's for sure. It's too bad to see that check airmen are acting that way, though.

 

[JungleJett]

Speed..looks like you need to stay put.

 

[fischman]

Speed..looks like you need to stay put.

Bingo.

If you enjoy mediocrity, stay at your regional.

I've done both. TRUST me. There is NO regional that comes close to offering what we have at NJA right now. NOT ONE.

 

[skiandsurf]

Here's a question I have a baby due late this summer. Suppose I apply and suppose I interview and get hired. What's the possibility of getting time off for the baby?

My partners wife went into labor on the third day of ground school. Didnt tell anyone but me (I drove him to the airport). The next day I told the fine folks at FlightSafety...No Problem. He later called NJs, took a month off (difficult labor) and came back with no hassles.

If you are on the road when wife goes into labor, I have heard of stories when the company lets you fly YOUR jet home. Dont waste time in the terminals.

 

[btodd77]

Speed,
If you need time off for the baby it's not a problem....called FMLA. When my wife was pregnant with my son she had a difficult pregnancy. I used FMLA for 5 months and when that was tapped out I was able to get a personal leave for another 7 months. There was no hesitation from the company whatsoever.

 

[skyward80]

It's interesting to hear guys talk about 7 day trips as long. Even my buddy who works for a regional complains after a "long" 4 day trip. I guess it's all in what a person experiences. I go out on 10 day trips (scheduled) and routinely wind up returning home a week or more late.

At Uncle Sam Airlines... "We'll get you there... Sooner or later... Maybe."

Not ragging on anybody. I guess it's just a different perspective.

Skyward80

 

[gutshotdraw]

Here's a question I have a baby due late this summer. Suppose I apply and suppose I interview and get hired. What's the possibility of getting time off for the baby?

Our division President flew a pilot (an NJA crossover BTW) to his home airport on one of our aircraft because his wife was having life-threatening labor complications and the airlines couldn't get him home promptly enough. Answer your question?

 

[Speedtree]

Thanks for the insight guys. I am not into mediocrity, that's why I am asking questions. I just happen to love what I do more than the average regional captain I guess. It makes a huge difference when you live in base.

I'm sure I would like it at NJ too if I ever get there. Most of it really appeals to me and I do miss the corporate aviation life in many ways, but I also don't dislike the airline environment either. I am just weighing the pros and cons. I want to still be happy in 10 yrs, 20 yrs, you get the idea. I most likely will apply and see what happens.

Thanks again.

 

[CA1900]

Most of it really appeals to me and I do miss the corporate aviation life in many ways, but I also don't dislike the airline environment either.

I'm an ex-regional guy, and this seems to me like the best of both worlds (airline and corporate). You have a stable, reliable schedule. Your vacations are bid when you want them, not when the boss wants to go (or the charter schedule is busy). Benefits are outstanding. Hotels are generally top-notch. Commuting isn't an issue.

And for those who don't commute and live in-base, remember something: bases close. Even big bases that you thought would never close! Even at major airlines and big regionals. (And in the case of my regional, I had multiple bases close out from under me. I moved three times, and still commuted because the bases kept closing!)

I am just weighing the pros and cons.

That's the right way to do it!

Good luck with your search for the right job for ya.